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Re: About Turkish (what is the importance to the VMS)

>Since it seems to be a thing "in" to share the knowledge of Turkish
>numerals, here are the same numerals in Uzbek (you see how similar to
>Turkish)and almost the same (with a slight difference in pronounciation)
>in Kazakh:
>1- bir
>7-? (I forgot)
>8- Sakkuz
>9- Tokkuz
>10- Un
>20- Yirmi etc.
>Why is it of importance for VMs list?
In the past the list has entertained a wide variety of speculation. One
might ask Why is Dr Dee of import to the list? While I would dealrly like
to see evidence that Dee was involved. So far the evidence seems to be

As for why I asked how Turkish numbers worked. I thought there were people
here who might help a diffrent problem, while at the same time adding a
little bit of info to the problem at hand. Here is an excellent case of
workers copying a script not in the native culture. Granted what is painted
onto clocks and watches does not look like the itaianate hand the Vmss is
scribbled in. I have hard enough time with French (and spelling my own
language) that I doubt I will be able to learn Turkish. I have hard enough
time with the language of statistics to follow all the discussion herein.

Personally I think the Vmss was written by the equivilent of Rozencrantz
and Gilderstern. Some really 'Bright' guys (or gals) who are having a bit
of fun to mess with the head of the caligraphy professor (or the sister
supeierior).The 'No one reads this stuff anyway' type attitude. Perhaps the
Vmss was written by a couple of 'sisters' who wanted to do the same thing
the 'boys' were doing. What if they did not have proper instruction?

I think I noted it before here. I totally spaces out on My college Physics
final. I covered the entire answer sheet with pictures of Isaac Newton and
Tyco Brahe. What would someone make of that?  I did manage to pass the
class as I was a TA for the Proff in a computer class. It was actually this
reason I took the advanced physics, without the calculus. I thought I could
crib off the computers. I can just see rozencrantz and guilderstern signing
up for Advanced Herbology. Over thier heads they conspire to make the
paper. I could have just as easally turned in a blank test, rather than an
illustrated one.

 I may not be able to take the derivitive of an interegal, but I know what
they are. I just found all the notation and formal 'nonsense' of the math
to be booring. Especially if I could solve the problem empirically whith
brute force. After all I had Bennett's book which has a chapter on the
Vmss. I have found that book a excellent crib when I have a diffucalt
signal processing problem to solve. Pretty good for a computer text going
into it's 30th year.

Sometimes the fundamentals do not change no matter how much we want them too.
A funny incedent, when I was at apple. My boss came in to ask me what I was
up to. I replied I was attempting to program postscript to take the
fourrier transform of an image. He replied that he had a PhD in signal
processing. and that I was probably working at a level beyond his theisis.
The diffrence here was that I was down in the trenches woring with it on a
daily baisis. He on the other hand hardly had the reason to use it. To me
it was a tool. No diffrent than a hammer.

In effect my notes when I work on such problems, are encrypted. I have
designed my own signal processing language (based on postscript) I tend to
think in terms of stacks and key value pairs. The only problem is that It
is hard to express myself to people with a basic knowlege of a diffrent
language. I do not know if I could consciencly define this language to

What does any of this have to do with Voynich? I do not know. Sometimes
data, any data, can help solve a problem. There was an interesting artical
in Scentific American regarding the use of small amounts of random noise in
signal detection. I think this falls into the category of simulated
aAnealing. Now I do not know what simulated is. But I do spend many a
saturday from 1 to 4 annealing glass into copper at 1500 degrees F (sorry I
don't know the C I have heard the number 800 used) This in my attempt to
learn how these 'Objects de vertu' are put together.
Currently I am making a bird like Hans Anderson described in the
Nightengale (A true story by the way) While in Germany last year I arranged
for a manufacture of the mechanical parts for which I am making a case.
Hence I am not spending time with the Vmss ;-) What would a collector
hundreds of years in the future make of my piece. The mechanical parts were
made with tooling of the latter 19th century, which was in constant use up
until the 1960s and then put into storage. until about 10 years back.
Mostly used for repair, the current oweners (sons of a musem curator) still
manufacture these mecnaincal marvels to order. (There is an entierely
diffrent company in Swizerland, which have a completley diffrent set of
tooling (design) that dates back to the 18th century. The respective
companies are (Grieshbaum (MMM Gmbh), and Rouge)
What would someone in the future think of my Enamel work. It does not
belong to any 'School'. If it made it out into the market accidently I am
sure some 'expert' would say it was made before WWII as there are no
plastic parts. (Dealers hate these things, becouse they are labled 19th
century singing bird, Only to open into it and find plastic parts (oxidised
and brittle or guey) and a mid to late 50s date code) I digress (but then
so did Dr Dee) As I am not practiced in high temprature enamels my cases
have bubbles and inclusions, Since the copper is oxegen free, these are
samples of what ever the atmosphere in the kiln is. I am sure there are
telatail 21st century traces in these.

As for the painting itself, My designs are origional, unless I become known
as an artist and make a certain number of items these few enameled boxes
may be unique enough to defy classification. Would anyone bother to make
these tests? As an industry there are actually quite a few of these toys in
circulation. Yet most people might see one in thier lifetime. The value of
such items preclude them to bank vaults and safes. The written litrature to
private archives. Since the major definitive collection was stolen, most
archives are diffucault to get into. Current owners are paranid of
intellectual property theft. Images are hard to come by. Much of the
written information is suspect especially from the 50s. A well heeled lady
acompaning her husband to Paris, might buy one and bring it back. Since she
only sees one copy she makes a tail how this was once owned by Marie
Antoinette. (Marie, did own such toys, just not that particuar one)
I find the paralles to the Vmss facinating.

Returning to the subject at hand.
I noted when I mentioned that from a typgraphical standpoint, the rivers in
the text caused by the spaces and re-inking of the pen, seem to have
uinique structure. If I had more time I would love to do some analysis with
the positions of the pen strokes in the Vms. I got almost no feedback from
the list so I sort of let things drop.
Did anyone give this any thought?


>Julie Porter wrote:
>> >BTW, here are the numbers and months in Turkish:
>> >
>> >      1 = bir     10 = on      100 = y¸z
>> >      2 = iki     20 = yirmi   200 = iki y¸z
>> >      3 = ¸Á      30 = otuz
>> >      4 = d?rt    40 = kIrk
>> >      5 = beS     50 = elli
>> >      6 = altI    60 = altmIS
>> >      7 = yedi    70 = yetmiS
>> >      8 = sekiz   80 = seksen
>> >      9 = dokuz   90 = doksan
>> >
>> >     11 = on bir
>> >     12 = on iki
>> >        = ...
>> This brings up a slighty off topic question. As members may recall, my main
>> interest is in clockwork toys. Turkey was the major importer of these
>> 'objects de vertu'.
>> Many clocks and watches were incorporated with music and automata along
>> with precious and semi precious stones. The dials are often paintesd with
>> traingles and half moons for numbers. Some time ago I was asked how these
>> symbols were used to perform calculations. In other words, do they act like
>> roman numbers, or arabic numbers?
>> Part of the problem is that these items were produced in Swizerland, with
>> cases made in London (for the hallmark) I don't think the dial painters
>> (who were most likey swiss or engish) always got the copy correct. These
>> are the same dial makers who used IIII instead of IV.
>> The makings of the minutes (chapter ring) are of particular intrerest as
>> this should go from 0 to 59.
>> -julieP