Re: VMS/J.R.R.Tolkien

[Mark Perakh <perakh@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Regarding the A and B parts of VMS, those who had a chance to look at my paper on
the application of  LSC to VMS at www.bigfoot.com/~perakh/Texts/  may have noticed
that, as far as LSC data show, A and B display a very distinctive statistical
difference. For example, the minimum of LSC for A is at n=8, while for B it is at
n=30. When measured for VMS as a whole the minimum turned out to be at n=20. There
are some other differences, described in that paper. They are very similar to the
differences between a complete text (in a natural  language) vs the same text from
which all vowels are deleted. My guess at that time was that both A and B are in
the same language but A was written using many abbreviations, while B mostly used
unabbreviated words. Cheers, Mark

Steve Ekwall wrote:

>  From: Dennis <ixohoxi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>  To: Richard Shand <rshand@xxxxxxxx>
>  Subject: Re: Voynich Questions
>
>  Richard Shand wrote:
>  >
>  > Dennis,
>  >
>  > Greetings!
>  >
>  > I hope you are doing well.  Here is an observation from one of
>  > another member of the Mystae that you might want to respond to.
>  > ________________________________________________
>  >
>  > >I've had some interesting "cross-connections" about the Voynich manuscript.
>  > >This 'private alphabet' reminds me of the private language games of J.R.R.
>  > >Tolkien. He invented languages _first_ you know, and then made up a world
>  > >to suit his languages. :) Anyway, he spent alot of time crafting both
>  > >languages and alphabets and he actually kept a diary in one of his private
>  > >scripts. Or tried to. His biography explains how it actually went:
>  > >
>  > >The only difficulty was that he could not decide on the final form of it;
>  > >he kept on altering the letters and changing their use, so that a sign that
>  > >was used for 'r' one week might be used for 'l' the next. Nor did he always
>  > >remember to keep a record of these changes, and after a time he found it
>  > >difficult to read the earlier entries in the diary.
>  > >
>  > >Humphrey Carpenter, "J.R.R. Tolkien: The Authorized Biography", p. 100
>  > >(first page of the chapter  "Oxford Interlude")
>  > >
>  > >It seems quite likely to me that whoever made the Voynich manuscript might
>  > >also have changed the symbols IN THE PROCESS of writing it. A 'private
>  > >language' -- or alphabet -- always has that hazard. If you are the entire
>  > >user community you can change it at a whim. Has anyone analyzed different
>  > >segments of the manuscript to see if there is more consistency in parts
>  > >than in the whole? Or contra-wise, if there are large differences in the
>  > >usage of various symbols between different partsof the manuscript? The
>  > >information available about Tolkien's creative process could be invaluable
>  > >in thinking of other ways to approach the Voynich manuscript.
>
>         For a long time we believed that there was an "A"
>  Voynichese and a "B" Voynichese.  There are sizable
>  statistical differences between "A" and "B" texts; I
>  believe that Captain Prescott Currier discovered this.
>  The penmanship of "A" and "B" are also different.
>
>         It has occurred to us that the differences between "A"
>  and "B" might have been due to the same person's
>  writing at different times in his/her life.
>
>         However, we've found that there are comparable
>  differences between different texts in a given
>  language.  Caesar's *Gallic Wars* and the Latin Vulgate
>  Bible show comparable differences.
>
>         In the early years of VOYNICH-L, some people discussed
>  Tolkien's Elvish.
>
>         Here are some papers that address this issue.
>
>  "Currier A and B: two different languages?" by RenИ
>  Zandbergen
>  http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/lang.htm
>
>  "Zipf's laws in the Voynich Manuscript", by Gabriel
>  Landini
>  http://web.bham.ac.uk/G.Landini/evmt/zipf.htm
>
>         In Gabriel's paper, he notes:
>
>     "Note that the distance between A and B languages at
>  r300 is smaller
>  than that between of Genesis and Isaiah in Latin, which
>  are written in
>  the same language. Also note the small number of common
>  words between
>  the two texts in Latin. The size of the complete Emma
>  is 5.47 times
>  larger than the first 10 chapters."
>
>         I'm cc'ing this to the list to see what other ideas
>  anyone has.
>
>  It's good to hear from you!
>  Dennis Stallings
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry about the bandwidth - as you BOTH have a good point(s) here
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Just for ~Grins~ J.R.R. Tolkien wrote in the "authorized edition" of
> THE HOBBIT (Ballantine Books) 1937,1938 & 1966 (my source) on pg 62:
> 2p: ~REF: _their MAP for the journey ahead!~ (as read by 'ELROD')_
>
> <quote>
> "He took it and gazed long at it,and he shook his head for if he did
> not altogether approve of dwarves and their love of gold, he hated
> dragons and their cruel wickedness, and he grieved to remember the
> ruin of the town of Dale and it's merry bells, and the burned banks of
> the bright River Running. The moon was shining in a broad silver
> cresent. He held up the map and the white light shone through it.
>
>   'What is this?' , he said. 'There are MOON-LETTERS here', beside the
> plain runes which say 'five feet high the door and three may walk
> abreast.'
>
>   'What are moon-letters?' asked the hobbit full of excitement. He
> loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also liked runes and
> letters and cunning handwritting, though when he wrote himself it was
> a bit thin and spidery.
>
>    'Moon-Letters ARE rune-letters, but you cannot see them,' said
> Elrod, 'not when you look straight at them.  They can only be seen
> when the moon shines behind them, and what is more, with the more
> cunning sort it must be a moon of the same shape and season as the
> day when they were written. The dwarves invented them and wrote them
> with silver pens, as your friends could tell you.  These must have
> been written on a midsummer's eve in a crescent moon, a long while
> ago.' .......
>
>    'What do they say?' asked Gandalf and Thorin together, a bit vexed
> perhaps that even Elrod should have found this out first, though
> really there had not been a chance before, and there would not have
> been another until goodness knows when.
>
> 'Stand by the grey stone when the thrush knocks,' read Elrod, 'and the
> setting sun with the last light of Durin's Day will shine upon the
> key-hole.'   "
>
> <End Quote>
> ......................
> -=se=-
> Best to you and yours;