Re: Toresella

["Dana F. Scott" <dfscott@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

The following may be of interest concerning Newbold:
http://www.borderlands.com/archives/arch/decipher.htm

I wonder if Voynich might have met Newbold through association with William Allen? Both
Voynich and Newbold are referenced at the following Web site.
http://www.whallenbooks.com/gahistory.html

Regards,
Dana Scott


Dennis wrote:

> Dana F. Scott wrote:
> >
>
> > >     Toresella, Sergio. ``Gli erbari degli alchimisti. [Alchemical
> > > herbals.]'' In Arte farmaceutica e piante medicinali -- erbari, vasi,
> > > strumenti e testi dalle raccolte liguri [Pharmaceutical art and
> > > medicinal plants -- herbals, jars, instruments and texts of the
> > > Ligurian collections], Liana Saginati, ed. Pisa: Pacini Editore, 1996,
> > > pp.31-70. [Profusely illustrated. Fits the VMS into an ``alchemical
> > > herbal'' tradition.]
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >     "Among the alchemical herbals we must include the one contained in
> > > the Voynich codex [45].
> > >
> > >     "It is the strangest, most mysterious, and enigmatic herbal known,
> > > because it is written in an enciphered language that has resisted the
> > > attacks of the most powerful American electronic computers [46].  It
> > > is almost eighty years that the best cryptographers, paleographers,
> > > and specialists in the most obscure languages have tirelessly tried to
> > > penetrate the mystery of this herbal, but in vain.
> >
> > This may be true if we are addressing solely the associated encrypted text;
> > however, I am very much impressed by the volumes of information that
> > might be gleaned from the drawings. They too have a wonderful story to
> > tell; somewhat, perhaps, similar to the silent movies of the past. There is a
> > purpose and a story behind every drawing in the VMS.
>
>         D'Imperio expressed a similar opinion.
>
> > >     "Rudolph II of Habsburg, king of Bohemia, who constructed the
> > > 'alchemists' quarter' in Prague, paid for this codex attributed to
> > > Francis [sic] Bacon (1214-1292), the fantastic sum of 600 gold ducats:
> > > remember, in comparison, that the Juliana Anicia herbal [the Vienna
> > > Codex of Dioscorides] was bought for only 100 ducats.
> >
> > Well, 100 ducats to you or me might have seemed like a lot more money than
> > 600 ducats probably was for king Rudolph. Unless Francis Bacon was very
> > knowledgeable in Botany or had a clever confidant assisting him (which I doubt)
> > then I am not inclined to believe at this point that Francis scripted the encyphered
> > text in the VMS.
>
>         First of all, I put the [sic] because Toresella was talking about
> *Roger Bacon*.  We'll discuss
> that further on.
>
>         As for the price, we've estimated that 600 gold ducats represents about
> 900,000 US$ in present-day
> buying power.  The Codex Vindobonensis of Dioscorides is a very good,
> artistic copy of Dioscorides' work on
> herbs, and one that was made around 600 CE; thus it possessed great
> value.
>
> >
> > The plants are neither exceedingly mysterious nor fantastically unfathomable.
> > There is evidence that they are purposefully selected; however, the artistic
> > skill evident in the drawings while realistic to the purpose is not advanced
> > for a botanical artist. If the VMS were penned in the second half of the XVI
> > century, then I have no difficulty in accepting the presence of  botanical
> > samples from the Western Hemisphere; however, I am not convinced that
> > the sunflower identification is accurate.
>
>         It was Brumbaugh that said that the sunflower and pepper showed that
> it was written after the discovery of the New World.  He thought that
> the text
> was nonsense, written by Dee and Kelly to make money.  He did think that
> the
> labels were meaningful, Latin enciphered in a rudimentary cipher.  We no
> longer
> accept any of this.
>
> > Lenses may have been available for
> > microscopic examination similar to what we might see through a magnifying
> > glass, but microscope technology would have been in its infancy. Of course
> > if Galileo were around, he might have been able to help. He studied under
> > Cesalpino, a botanist and medical professor at Pisa. I started to consider
> > the question of microscopic and telescopic observations in the VMS.
> > Interestingly references to microcrocosm/macrocosm would be appropriate;
> > however, the Andromeda nebula seems to be a bit beyond focal point of
> > reality for the VMS, so my recommendation would be to look for altenative
> > explanations. For example, notice the horizontal and verticle orb lines in the
> > middle circle of f68r1. There are 4 spokes of the wheel which seem to rotate
> > in a counterclockwise direction from the central hub superimposed on a second
> > set of 4 spokes which alternate between the first set of spokes that together
> > complete a set of 8 spokes. There is evidence of 8 (flower, stars, and leaves)
> > occurring elsewhere in the VMS, which may eventually prove to be significant.
>
>         It sounds like you don't know about the first major claim of
> decipherment of the VMs:
>
> Newbold, William Romaine.
> <i>The Cipher of Roger Bacon,</i>
> edited with foreword and notes by Roland Grubb Kent.
> Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press;
> London, H. Milford, Oxford University Press, 1928.
>
>         Newbold was a classics scholar and also was involved in cryptanalysis
> during WWI.  Newbold
> noted the Latin text on the last page of the VMs:  "michiton oladabas
> multos portas" and interpreted
> it as meaning "Thou was giving me many gates".  (The correct Latin for
> that is "mihi dabas multas portas".)
> He took this to mean that many operations would be necessary to decipher
> the VMs.  I do not remember all
> the details of his claimed decipherment.  He took the cover letters
> assertion that Roger Bacon wrote the
> VMs at face value, and said that R. Bacon had discovered microscopes,
> telescopes, etc., centuries before
> his time, and thus could see such things as spiral nebulae and ovae.
>
> Manly, John M.
> ``Roger Bacon and the Voynich Manuscript.''
> <i>Speculum</i> <b>6</b> (July 1931): 345-91.
> [Refutes Newbold.]
>
> refuted him.  The whole affair gave study of the VMs a bad name.
>
> > >     "Personally I think that the person who drew and wrote this herbal
> > > was profoundly impressed by the exhibition of some charlatan at the
> > > market place and thought that he had discovered the secret of the
> > > world; a secret to entrust to a language and a cryptic script such as
> > > is often found in certain forms of insanity [47].
> >
> > Whether or not the individual who produced the VMS was insane
> > has not been determined. My premise for examination of the VMS
> > is that the author was not insane. In fact, I would say that this individual
> > was very knowledgeable and highly educated with an inclination to
> > admire the accomplishments found in a Renaissance man. Children often
> > aspire to heros and it may well be that our scientist fell victim at an early age
> > to the fanciful renditions of a market place charlatan promising miraculous
> > cures and immortality to those who would imbibe of his magical elixir acquired
> > from the fountain of youth in a far off oasis from beyond the horizon in a
> > place known as Shangri-la.
>
>         I think that the sanity of the VMs' author(s) is open.  Paranoid
> schizophrenics can appear normal on the surface but have elaborate
> delusion
> systems.
>
> > Each of us who examines the VMS will latch on to our thread in the cave
> > as a guide to help us find our way back to the beginning. Some will say they
> > see the light only to find more darkness beyond. Others will find the thread
> > broken. Some may be lucky enough to discover real gems in their search
> > for the truth. My premise is that the author of the VMS was an aspiring
> > natural scientist, well educated during the Medieval/Renaissance period,
> > probably coming from northern Italy, who based his observations on real
> > botanical samples with an interest in the true facts that his scientific discoveries
> > might reveal. He used the tools available to him at the time, embellishing and
> > bolstering his considerations of nature with the related Astrology, Cosmology,
> > Pharmacology, and experimentation (Alchemy?) popular at the time. He too
> > would have admired the great teachers in botany and medicine prior to his era.
> > In addition, the author of the VMS may draw from the culture and customs of
> > his homeland (ladies, costumes, castles, mythology, animals, etc.). What matter
> > is it if our progenitor were sane, insane, a quack, charlatan, or a genius? The
> > enigma for us, it seems, is to solve the puzzle and find the truth of what is contained
> > within the manuscript and possibly who wrote it, including when and where it might
> > have been written. The game is afoot and we are its players.
>
>         I agree.
>
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >     NOTES:
> > >
> > >     "45.  Currently kept in the Beinecke Rare Book Library at Yale
> > > University (Conn.), USA, as MS 408.
> > >
> > >     "46.  The best exposition of the research on the Voynich codex is
> > > in M. E. D'Imperio, *The Voynich Manuscript.  An elegant enigma,
> > > Laguna Hills (Ca.) 1976.  A good summary, also easily available in
> > > Italy, may be found in D. Kahn, *The Codebreakers.*  There also exists
> > > an Internet site dedicated to this issue on which about forty students
> > > from all over the world communicate their discoveries.
>
>         AFAIK, this is the first time that the Voynich list appeared in the
> printed
> media.
>
>
> > >
> > >     "47.  The phenomenon of invented languages is very widespread and
> > > represents a fundamental aspect of some mental pathologies.  For an
> > > approach to the problem see: S. ARIETE, *Creativita`. La Sintesi
> > > magica*, Roma 1986.  A. BAUSANI, *Le Lingue inventate. Linguaggi
> > > artificiali -linguaggi segreti- linguaggi universali*, Roma, 1974.
> > > And the recent B. BUONARROTI & P. ALBANI, *Aga Mage'ra Difura.
> > > Dizionario delle lingue immaginarie*, Bologna 1994."
>
>         I have looked at Arieti's book (available in English translation).  He
> discusses a simple schizophrenic who had a private language, but it was
> only a
> few words.
>
>         Let me appeal, once again, for someone who knows what BAUSANI and
> BUONARROTI & ALBANI say to come forward and tell us about it!!!
> I think Jim R. mentioned having a German translation of BAUSANI.
>
> > >
> > > Here is a summary of what Toresella says about alchemical herbals
> > > in his paper:
> > >
> > >     Toresella, Sergio. ``Gli erbari degli alchimisti. [Alchemical
> > > herbals.]'' In Arte farmaceutica e piante medicinali -- erbari, vasi,
> > > strumenti e testi dalle raccolte liguri [Pharmaceutical art and
> > > medicinal plants -- herbals, jars, instruments and texts of the
> > > Ligurian collections], Liana Saginati, ed. Pisa: Pacini Editore, 1996,
> > > pp.31-70. [Profusely illustrated. Fits the VMS into an ``alchemical
> > > herbal'' tradition.]
> > >
> > >     1)  "Alchemical herbals" is really a misnomer, since these herbals
> > > contain little or no alchemical imagery.  A Bolognese naturalist,
> > > Ulisse Aldrovandi (1522-1605) collected some of these herbals and
> > > labeled them "plants of the alchemists".  Toresella calls these
> > > "alchemical herbals" for lack of anything better.  (44-7)
> > >
> >
> > "Alchemical herbals" in the sense that they were plants collected for
> > the purpose of scientific study and expeimenation seems reasonable,
> > but classifying the VMS plants as "plants of the alchemists" may not
> > be appropriate because it is too restrictive. Some of the plants may
> > be found in any alchemist's collection of plants; however, others may be
> > more appropriately classified for their medicinal application and some
> > might also be found in recipes for a healthy diet.
>
> >  Have you ever tried to memorize verbatum more than a single
> > page of text? I have and believe me you will probably be very much
> > more knowledgeable about what you are trying to learn orally than if
> > you were to rely solely on notes taken in a classroom.
>
>         Before the invention of printing, and even after, all scholars had to
> memorize vast amounts of text, for books were far from being available
> as they are now.
> Thus they developed memory techniques extensively.
> *The Discoverers* by Daniel Boorstein has a good discussion of this.  I
> once took the Dale
> Carnegie course and learned some memory techniques.
>
>         I've read that Alexander Solzhenitsyn thought out his books and
> remembered them
> as ballads while he was imprisoned.  One of his published works is
> *Prussian Nights*.
> This is a ballad about the Russian payback for WWII in East Prussia.
> Solzhenitsyn himself forced a girl to sleep with him.
>
>         However, I don't think that the scholars were dramatically better than
> those of today because
> of this.   Indeed, our scholars have vast amounts of information
> available, of which the scholars of old could
> not even dream.
>
> Dennis