VMs: Re: V-shaped battlements

[Dana Scott <dfscott@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Thank you Petr for your list of castles. I wonder how many castles with
Ghibelline (swallow tail) battlements there are (were?) in Europe (10s, 100s,
1000s).  Nick has done a great job in his investigation, but I seem to want to
see more. Perhaps we can narrow it down to a 'Top Ten' list or less? I am not
sure that there is enough information on the Internet to do a thorough search.
There do seem to be many books on castles available for reference. We also need
a very nice redrawing/enhancement of what is displayed in the VMS. There is also
the question of whether or not the drawing in the VMS is a stylized/simplified
version of a castle.

Regards,
Dana Scott

The Drena castle has a nice 'look and feel' to it for the VMS;
however, it is probably not the one we are looking for.

Castle Drena: (Ghibelline battlement vs. Guelf battlement)
(Click on 'Special Pictures from Lake Garda' thumbnail at bottom;
may have to click reload; click on thumbnail again and then once more to
enlarge)
http://www.itwg.com/en_tre06.htm
I like the description here of the Drena Castle:
http://www.ongarda.com/

Castello di Sorbello: (Castles of course may undergo considerable
reconstruction)
http://www.lisciano.org/castello_di_sorbello.htm

Rhodes Castle:
http://hroger.bravepages.com/cruise/rhodes11.jpg
http://hroger.bravepages.com/cruise/rhodes20.jpg
http://www.tidalweb.net/gfisher/photography/Rhodes.JPG

Another Fine Tower: (not square, not round)
http://www.dc.peachnet.edu/~shale/images/firenze3.jpg

Dictionary:
http://www.bartlebee.com/61/23/G0112300.html
http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0456529.html

Coat of Arms:
http://www.shire.net/flagman/fig.%2016.gif
http://www.shire.net/flagman/fig.%205.gif

Italy Timeline:
http://pirate.shu.edu/~connelwi/Timeline.htm


Taking a Political Stance in Northern Italy --- (Guelph vs. Ghibelline)

Pisa and Siena were Ghibelline and Florence and Lucca were Guelph:
http://www.san.beck.org/AB21-Europe13thCentury.html#2

Florence Chronicle:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/villani.html
http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/20B/Urban.html

History of Mass: Guelph (pro papacy) and Ghibelline (pro Frederick II) factions
http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/Sep/sep29his.htm

Pope Boniface VIII:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02662a.htm

Petr Kazil wrote:

> Such a group assault on one small detail - we might even get somewhere.
>
> Below are my newest results. BTW - I'm very glad that you give checkable
> references, but I would prefer if you gave the dates also. And of course
> iconographic evidence (from old illustrations) is stronger than photographs
> of (potentially restored) castles.
>
> By now I'm firmly in favour of the "fantasy castle" hypothesis. Because:
> - almost all swallow tail castles (with two exceptions) have square towers,
> not round ones,
> - none (none!) of the castles with swallow tail towers also has "lightning
> conductor" style towers.
>
> I go into a lot of detail, but I hope we can draw a map and a timeline from
> our (verifiable!) results and then finish this discussion forever.
>
> Here are my finds, I have them from books, maybe you could corroborate them
> on the web. I indicate the likeness by number of stars:
>
> *** Castello Montebello in Bellinzona - 13th-15th century - swallow tails,
> round and square towers, several layers of battlements, p.512
> ** Bosen (Sarntaler alpen) - round tower with swallow tails - "Der Gscheibte
> (runde) turm am stadtrand von Bozen, wahrscheinlich der Bergfried der Burg
> Treuenstein" - no date given, gothic?, p.458
> ** Chateau st. Pierre bei Aosta - no date given - square layout, square
> towers, no round towers visible, p. 576
> * Vigolo Baselga (Trentino) - square church tower with swallow tails, p.430
>
> From: Das grosse ADAC Alpenbuch, 10th ed. 1991, ADAC Verlag, ISBN
> 3-87003-165-4
>
> ** Castello Montebello in Bellinzona - 13th-14th century - swallow tails, no
> towers shown in picture, p. 411
> * Schloss Thun - approx. 1200 - lightning conductors, round towers, no
> swallow tails, p.34
> * Schloss Aigle - 1488 - lightning conductors, round towers, no swallow
> tails, p.34
> * Schloss Chillon am Genfer see - no date given, must be older than 1530 -
> lightning conductors, round towers, no swallow tails, p.31
>
> From: Die Schweiz entdecken und erleben, 1990, Schweizer Reisekasse, Bern
>
> ** Castello scaligero di Villlimpenta, sul fiume Tione - since 1391 owned by
> the Gonzaga family - swallow tails, square layout, square towers - p.192
> ** Palazzo del Capitano, Piazza Sordello, Mantova - end 13th century -
> swallow tails, square layout - p.209
> ** Sirmione - built 1200 - erected by Martino della Scala - many swallow
> tails, square layout, square towers - p. 142, 144 - BTW not all walls have
> swallow tails, only the inner walls
> *  Il castello di Malpaga - built 1383, extended in quattrocento (1400+ ?) -
> swallow tails, square layout - p.19
> * Bornato - old castle from probably 9th century - a few swallow tails,
> square layout - p.150
>
> From: Attarverso 'l Italia: Lombardia/2 - Touring club Italiano - 1986
> Codice N 72 - ISBN 88-365-0296-2
>
> * Church tower and fortress in Vigevano (Lombardia, Italy) - built 1492,
> 1532-1553 (dates not quite certain, fortress tower was designed by
> Bramante) - a few swallow tails - all towers are square
>
> From: Attarverso 'l Italia: Lombardia/1 - Touring club Italiano - 1985
> Codice N 66 - ISBN
>
> Negative results:
>
> # Schloss Bruck am eingang zum Iseltal (Ost Tirol) - 1270 - just the
> ordinary type
> ## Unexpected negative result: no swallow tails in Venice, not even in the
> mosaics and frescoes in San Marco! Just the simple square wave type.
>
> From: Venice, Domenico Crivellari, 1982, Gruppo Editoriale Electa, Milan
>
> Greetz, Petr