Re: VMs: Golden fleece, was Mad Kircher ...

[Nick Pelling <incoming@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi everyone,

At 06:10 10/09/2003 -0700, Rene Zandbergen wrote:
> Slightly more seriously, I think that somewhere
> in the pond there is a 'golden fleece'.  Look at
> any portrait of Rudolf the second and you will
> see what the insignia should look like.
> Then look back at the pond, upper right corner,
> and tell me if I'm wrong.
> If it is, would it tell us anything more about
> the dating of the MS?

Here's a site with some beautiful hi-res images of the golden fleece 
insignia in robes (though 18th century):-
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raider4/austria/vienna/museums/schatzkammer/order_of_the_golden_fleece/robes/

Same idea, but for jewellery (the middle one is from burgundy/holland, 15. 
Jh):-
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raider4/austria/vienna/museums/schatzkammer/order_of_the_golden_fleece/jewellery/

Hmmm... if this correspondence is supported by a better images of f79v 
(it's not *really* clear on the no-ip image, for example), then this could 
be a really interesting avenue for exploration. It would seem to be as good 
a VMs image match as any other that's been made to date.

However, I think we'd need a Golden Fleece historian to help us get 
provisional dating evidence - it wasn't just Rudolph II who liked the idea, 
the Order of the Golden Fleece was founded on 10th January 1430 by Philip 
The Good, Duke of Burgundy, as part of his desire to "revive ancient 
chivalry as he conceived it" (according to everyone's favourite 
copyright-free 1911 encyclopaedia). :-)

        http://40.1911encyclopedia.org/B/BU/BURHANPUR.htm

That may (or may not) mean we can give an earliest date for the VMS of 
1429/1430... it's hard to say just yet. :-o  In the meantime, we can read 
the many webpages on the Order & make our own guesses:-

This page seems to be the main page for the "Confrerie Amicale de la Toison 
d'Or", which is now a "non-profit corporation under the laws of the State 
of Washington in the United States":-
        http://www.antiquesatoz.com/sgfleece/

This particular page gives a history of the Order, and links it with 
Trebizond (circa 1430, Colchis [Jason's destination], was part of the 
Trebizond Empire of the Comnena family):-
        http://www.antiquesatoz.com/sgfleece/origins.htm

One of the triggers behind the formation of the Order seems (according to 
this page) have been the rout of the Burgundian army in 1396, who were 
trying to drive Turkish troops out of Hungary: the Dukes of Burgundy, 
presiding over a weakened and geographically fragmented nation, needed some 
kind of "propaganda win" to unite its disparate peoples together, and a new 
order (based loosely on England's Garter) based on chivalry and allegiance 
to the crown was initiated:-
        http://www.chivalricorders.org/orders/other/goldflee.htm

Cheers, .....Nick Pelling..... 


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