Re: VMs: Re: VMS: Chinese theory, pushed against the wall...and the number of nymphs in Pisces

[Pamela Richards <spirlhelix@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi, Jorge

I might have more clearly said, "native system of
astronomy/astrology", since it is not clear which one
is being used, or if both are.  Either way, he is
partially using his system (New Year in Pisces), and
partially using ours (sloppy Zodiac "signs").  Not
very tidy.

So then, to tie this in to another thread which is,
forgive me, apart from the Chinese hypothetical
provenance, if we assume the nymphs to correspond to
degrees rather than days, do we agree that we don't
have a reason for Pisces to contain only 29
degrees/nymphs/stars?

And we indeed have 300 parading naked ladies (nymphs)
extant in the VMs?  I mean just the ones we can see,
not including the ones we presume are missing.

Just making sure of my facts.  I don't have confidence
in my nymph count, thanks to the creases in the
relevant pages.

Warmly,

Pam

--- Jorge Stolfi <stolfi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> 
>   > [Pam:] ... a document from the person native to
> another country, I
>   > wonder why that person bothered to attempt to
> use our Western
>   > Zodiac at all? It's not his area of expertise.
> His native system
>   > of astrology is.
>   
> First, I would rather say "astronomy" than
> "astrology": there is no
> evidence that the zodiac diagrams of the VMS are
> concerned about
> drawing horoscopes, at least in the European sense.
> The central
> pictures may have been intended only as convenient
> "geographical"
> labels. A modern astronomer might do the same, even
> if he considers
> astrology to be unmitigated charlatanery.
> 
> My guess is that the important information contained
> in those diagrams
> are star configurations and/or timings associated
> with each position
> of the Earth/Sun along the Ecliptic, the position
> being measured in
> degrees rather than days. Say, "when the Sun is at
> the 57 degree mark
> along the Ecliptic, Regulus will be 30 degrees above
> the horizon at
> midnight" (or something that actually makes
> astronomical sense).
> 
> To an astronomer this is is just a single circular
> list of 360 data
> records, with no "natural" beginning, nor any
> significant divisions
> except the solstices and equinoxes. Of course the
> list had to be
> broken into several chunks to fit in the book; and
> it would be only
> natural for the VMS author to use some traditional
> division.
> 
> Western astronomers would probably use the classical
> division of the
> Ecliptic into 12 chunks ("signs") of 30 degrees
> each. A Chinese
> astronomer could do that too, but could also use the
> 15 degree chunks
> of the agricultural calendar. Apart from cultural
> inertia, this choice
> would have the advantage of simplifying the table's
> captions: instead
> of "this page covers degrees 45 through 89 of the
> ecliptic, starting
> from the position of the winter solstice in 300 AC",
> it would suffice
> to write "Scorpio". Every astronomer would know
> precisely what that
> meant, and would be able to match the data with
> other tables to do any
> calculations.  (A modern astronomer who had to split
> a 10.7 MB star
> catalog into ~1 MB files would probably make the
> same choice.)
> 
> My guess is that the Western month names and Western
> zodiac pitures in
> the VMS have only this pedestrian function. That is,
> according to the
> "Chinese Theory, Version Ship-Doctor-12.3a", the
> Foreign Writer's
> purpose in adding those details was only to tell the
> Western Reader,
> "this chunk of our star table corresponds to Pisces
> (March) of your
> system".
> 
> Note that since each diagram has 30 divisions,
> presumably degrees, we
> *know* that the month names written on them are only
> approximate
> labels; and, besides, the spelling of those names
> and the bloopers in
> the illustrations raise doublts about the author's
> knowledge of the
> "Western system". Thus we should not assume that the
> pictorial Zodiac
> labels are any more accurate than the month labels.
> 
> Suppose, for the sake of example, that the original
> table was split
> into 15 degree chunks according to the Chinese
> agricultural calendar,
> whose starting point is approximately February 5. It
> is doubtful
> whether the Writer would have taken the trouble of
> re-chunking it so
> that it would begin at the Western starting point.
> (Since his role was
> only that of a compiler and transcriber, he may not
> even have known
> enough astronomy to do that correctly.) More likely,
> he would have
> just merged the 15-degree chunks in pairs to get
> 30-degree chunks, and
> labeled them with the closest sign of the Western
> Zodiac. If he also
> preserved the original order of the chinks, the
> first chunk would
> stretch roughly from Feb/5 to Mar/5 -- which, I
> gather, is
> approximately the Western Pisces.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> --stolfi
>
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=====
"I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing, than to teach ten thousand stars how not to dance."


		
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