Hypothesis about page 84v

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ProxyS
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Re: Hypothesis about page 84v

Post by ProxyS »

Still 3 tribe names to be decrypted.
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One at the top is what it says:
YZACHARR -> tribe Issachar
you may see in the third character an a (what I identified earlier as w) but I think here it’s a different one (is open at the bottom), my guess is CH or KH

The next one is interesting:
YARAAHBENI (spelled probably yarawbeni (w like in Yahwe), an acronym of Yahwe, see a son?) -> tribe Ruben (Ruwen)
I identified 8 generally as an r, at the beginning of the names there is often an acronym of Yahwe like Y, YH, YHW and in my opinion depending on how short the acronym is sometimes 8g is not YAR or YER but YAH

The last is clear:
YAHWOT (the old name Joseph) -> tribe Joseph
There is still a popular arabic name Jawdat -> my guess of same origin

ProxyS
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Re: Hypothesis about page 84v

Post by ProxyS »

Let’s make an interim balance. I have seen images on this page 84v (a smoking mountain, a flood, a star, a torch…) which reminded me of the Revelation of John. The image in the middle I have then interpreted as the New Heavenly Jerusalem. John stated about New Jerusalem:
"It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed".
Consequently, I anticipated these 12 words surrounding the city should be the 12 tribe names + 7 others (persons or whatever). These 7 can be excellent mapped to 7 Hebrew words describing 7 different ways of Yahwe praise. Reusing this mapping in the words of the 12 tribe names plus the supplement of new characters which were not used so far, I could find meaningful Hebrew names for each tribe, even if the one or the other character is not identified by 100% (sometimes because it’s not written accurate enough, sometimes because it’s not finally clarified if it depicts one syllable composed of two characters which is then pronounced other than the 2 as separate characters and sometimes because we don’t know how they pronounced some characters, especially as suffix -th, -yth, -t, -nyi …).

But I would say ~85% are mapped well. For the other it should become clear if we decrypt more words and sentences. And I’m convinced about the meaning of each word even if the right pronunciation still to be clarified. What would be then the conclusion as for now? As for this page 84v it seems to exist a reasonably interpretation for the images and for the words used in the middle picture. And these decrypted words support the interpretation. The origin language used here is almost sure Hebrew. We can’t conclude, from one image, that the whole VMS use the same code or even language. But this first step is promising…

ProxyS
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Re: Hypothesis about page 84v

Post by ProxyS »

What can we read more about the New Jerusalem? John said:
Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
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Ok, these 7 columns or towers in the middle look a bit like Aladin’s lamps, I think these are the mentioned lamps. I started then to count - and I count 6. Such a mistake can possibly be done by a contemporary ignorant but never by a medieval/renaissance rabbi, Roger Bacon or whoever decrypted this book in former times. And then, after a while – I see the 7th, you see only the foot of the lamp but the lamp is there, hidden under the canopy of stars. But what is the cause to depict them (especially the 7th) in this unusual way?
Again, this can’t be an accident this must be a hint and I think it’s a hint of highest importance for this book!
It shows that 6 out of 7 things in the pictures are correct and the 7th is hidden or incorrect, so e. g. 6 details in the plants are perfect depicted but the 7th is wrong, partly hidden, incorrect. If this applies to the text too, all the perfectionists and algorithmists, provided they don’t use any fuzzy logic algorithm, would be fooled until end of times, they would never find a code which give them perfect mapping for all words. I’m not sure about this but we must be tolerant with the code because every 7th word can be slightly misspelled on purpose. But I think this shouldn’t seriously hinder.

And this:
Revelation of John is attached to New Testament and therefore seen as a Christian script. But a lot of the story you can find in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Joel & Daniel. At the time John wrote the script (70-90 ad) everything was in flow; Jews became Christians and translated a lot from Hebrew into Greek adding specific Christian details. So, you can consider the Apocalypse as a text of Jewish tradition with some amendments.

ProxyS
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Re: Hypothesis about page 84v

Post by ProxyS »

I turned my attention for a moment to the first page. Here are most probably sayings or citations from different books. Book names or even author names are then below every citation. I took the last one.
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When I use my mapping, I get …MLLR. The first 3 chars I still don’t have but they are very frequently used and what I guess (can be wrong of course) they mean TS…V or KS..V or similar, we would probably pronounce them XAV like in the name Xavier. Then the name was KSVMLLR. Such a name is difficult to find in Hebrew. But the author of this book was living in Europe and he knew his contemporary literature and authors. The name Xavier came from Spain and is pronounced there Javier and this is in my opinion the Hebrew chaver (haver, a friend). And the second part? I found a good match: Maller. The name under this citation would be then Friend Maller. So the text above would be a sentence spoken by this friend. There is a book titled Loher und Maller, medieval Game of Thrones, very brutal, what I read (2 friends become enemies, at the end the whole families try to extinguish each other without any mercy). Written in 1437 by Elisabeth von Lothringen, countess von Nassau-Saarbrücken (1395 – 1456) acc. to Wikipedia. Based on older French chansons de geste, which were only rudimentary known. She made a novel out of it, very popular at that time. What did this Maller say? I don’t know. If the hypothesis is correct that the vowels are not among Voynich alphabet, then mapping would be only the first step to decrypt. After this you would have to fill them with appropriate vowels and find where one word ends and the next begins. Eventually you will encounter some intentional misspelled words or abbreviations. So, a lot to do…

ProxyS
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Re: Hypothesis about page 84v

Post by ProxyS »

Ok, the next two names explain almost all: what this book is about, where the author comes from (from which group), what these little women are doing, why Rudolf II met secretly some people, etc.
But first: this book contains all the secret knowledge only for the reason to have means at hand, or to pretend having these means, against the powerful and others who were in the position and being willing to harm innocent people for nothing. I don’t need to read the sentence from Loher und Maller, it’s sure about unjust treatment.
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The first word is YABBAMIAH or YEBBAMIAH ZAMIRYI (songs to the angel Jebamiah). How is this angel usually invoked? Like this:
JABAMIAH Angel: producer of all things, makes me sink, aware of your Word (your vibration, your energies). Fill me your presence, so that when the Company will help me to the action, either your force to act, your voice to order, your divine Engineering, which built. Regenerate in me, JABAMIAH Angel, anything that isn’t in conformity with the divine law. And guard me, Lord, thinking that my works are mine because, actually, I’ve realized through you. Allow that the circumstances are favourable, encouraging for me to the realization of my projects, my wishes, and places in front of me the people who agree to make bear fruit, to make succeed, which, thanks to you, I want to undertake.
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The second is the part word SHEM BAAL (proper Baal Shem).
This was the reason Rudolf II met Rabbi Löw on 3rd Adar 5352 secretly.
I think anybody would understand now, it’s obvious. And I will not investigate these little women pages any further and stay with the apocalypse on the save and sound side of this book… :o

ProxyS
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Re: Hypothesis about page 84v

Post by ProxyS »

once you know what you are looking at, it gets easier and easier…
Here some kabbalistic mysticism of numbers.
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In the middle Sefirots (emanations, powers which mediate among each other to find the preponderant one for somebody). There are male and female Sefirots like Malkhut. Are the two male here Hesed and Gevurah? Both are referred to as arms of the world.
Numbers in Voynichi (from right top to left bottom) 1…12.
And these 3 separate characters are the so-called mothers (Aleph, Mem, Shin). They symbolise the soul, body and mind but head, belly and chest as well. But, if you have only consonants in your alphabet, what do you take for Aleph? They took Zajin. You will find these 3 in different order all over the text. When you hit on them - time for reflexion, don’t hurry, make a break. Slow down, you don’t need to read the VMS with such speed. ;)

ProxyS
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Re: Hypothesis about page 84v

Post by ProxyS »

I had a look on the 4 winds-page (two pages back from the apocalypse page).
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And I turned my attention to the singular word above the person at the top. It seems this one doesn’t belong to the text above, is separated and somehow written transverse. Was it a memo? It’s a rare word, couldn’t find a second occurrence in the rush.
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According to my mapping T_L_L_T_W_T, and I found a possible match: TELAL TEVAWTH (both c are not connected so a vowel can be put in-between and the second T has a curl more than the other two, probably we have to distinguish between different Ts) -> seek shade hungrily. The writer required a tint urgently? Was it a memo that was left for somebody who came later to the workshop, after the first person already had left? And look at the gown of the person at the bottom, isn’t it pale, washy, the rest of blue he had?
I tried to find words which are used in the Old Testament in Hebrew. Both occur in the Bible but they are Aramaic. If the kabbalistic assumption isn’t wrong Aramaic would be an option. Moses de Leon wrote the Zohar in Aramaic (large part if it). And the word yabbehsheth (the earth as a planet) I identified in a former post occurs in the Hebrew Bible but is Aramaic as well. In Hebrew one would probably say erets or ara.

My guess as of today is:
1. VMS is kabbalistic,
2. is written in crypted Aramaic,
3. is written more than 100 years after the parchment had been manufactured,
4. there are flaws in images & text interspersed in it on purpose,
5. the authors were short of blue tint at a point in time.

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proto57
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Re: Hypothesis about page 84v

Post by proto57 »

Hi Proxy: You've been doing a huge amount of work here. I hope you don't mind if I step in and make some observations. Please don't take them in a negative light, they are only meant in a helpful way.

But the thing is, I think there are major problems with your suggested translations. When anyone translates anything, if they use multiple substitutions for the values of the cipher/language, without having a system to explain the reasoning behind them, which is repeatable for others, there is no way of knowing whether or not any result is correct.

You have been turning the same Voynich characters, parts of words, and words, into different plain text results. This can be done endlessly, but there is not way to determine the value of the results.

The two standards I apply, I derived from the work of Elizebeth and William Friedman. BOTH must be correct, at the same time, to know if any decipherment or translation is the right one:

1) The results must be repeatable by someone who knows the lexicon and system used.
2) The results must have meaning in some context.

In your case you have met #2, but not #1. I don't think your results would be repeatable by anyone else, so there is no way of knowing if you are right or if you are wrong. But as I wrote previously, the fact that you have so many substitutions implies that they are wrong.

If you had a system that I or anyone could repeat, then of course I would say you are on to something. Do you have a system you can share?

All the best,
Rich.
"Man is the measure of all things: What is, that it is; what is not, that it is not"- Protagoras

ProxyS
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Re: Hypothesis about page 84v

Post by ProxyS »

Hi Rich,

I can’t take them in negative light. We all try to get to the truth and if somebody can contradict an idea in a convincing way, I would welcome that because it helps to save time. Furthermore, scepticism is a very good feature for every investigator. By the way I don’t take anything for granted and write mostly probably in my posts.

Your first objection was that the substitution for the values of a cipher and language must have a system and explanation. You surely know that in Hebrew (and I suppose this wasn’t different in Aramaic, their every-day language until 2nd century AD) every character has a value (aleph is 1, teth is 9, jod is 10 and so on until taw 400). Therefore, they could assign a value to every name, YHWH was 26 (I hope I remember correctly) and 666 - yeh, this should resolve who has the wisdom, John writes… I would expect that a value is separated from other words and the rest comes from the context. This system would definitely reach the limit if they started to write papers about algebra or number theory.

The second: the result must be repeatable by someone who knows the lexicon and system used. Repeatable as a technical process? Ok, yes, but it wouldn’t be enough for a common understanding. Lexicon and system won’t prevent you from disagreement or misinterpretation. Use a web translator (which use a lexicon and system) for a complicated topic and show the result to a native speaker of target language, sometimes it would be a long way from translation to common understanding. But we are here not even at this point. What I’m missing in this statement above is the reference to context sensitivity. Without context sensitivity isn’t possible to reach the semantics and at the end understanding of a human language. Usually, we underestimate the amount of knowledge we need to share and agree upon before we even start to communicate.

Here in an unknown code, we have to create a speculative context before we start to assign termini to linguistic signifier. Already at this point a complete disagreement is possible so we never reach the same interpretation. One could say the rosettes are planets and the names in the middle are planet names. We could dispute this and argue for and against. In my opinion at this stage the most convincing story is worth to be followed and the story would be the context. Then you can start to map and assign termini which you expect in this context. Your choices must be confirmed within other contexts. At the end of the whole process, you got enough assigned termini so you don’t need to speculate any more and can start to read and interpret. I think from a point when you mapped the Voynich characters to characters of a real language (provided the language is correct and the mapping is correct by 60-70%, this improves then with every decrypted word) to the point you can start to read and interpret would take months if not years for many people.

If you refer in your post to so far missing alphabet, I can provide a provisional one next days. However, I will comment where I’m relatively sure (like g at the beginning of a word is Y, 8 in the middle is R (exception is the word YHWE, could be they pronounced it different because they shouldn’t speak out), bar-connected cc is LL, etc.), where I’m less sure and what still needs to be evaluated.

I registered as user ProxyS - at that day we had a communication issue in our unix net and the main suspect was the proxy server but it wasn’t.

Regards, PS

ProxyS
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Re: Hypothesis about page 84v

Post by ProxyS »

Hi Rich,

here is the promised provisional alphabet and some additional decryptions from the rosettes-page. I hope my handwriting is readably. The mapping is between Voynichi characters and Hebrew transcriptions. Next column is about the presumptive pronunciation of the phonemes. Why can I speculate about it at all? Because in my opinion the authors followed mostly the spoken Aramaic. I’ll justify it on the basis of some examples later. In the last column there are examples of decrypted words containing the relative character. In doing so I always tried to find a match among ancient Hebrew words used in Old Testament or in Aramaic. In few cases there was only a match in Aramaic.
Woj-Alphabet_2.jpg
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Of the important phonemes I haven’t come to a conclusion about n-, ph- at the beginning and the difference bet. -lah, -lath (-LAW) and -dah (-DAW) at the end, which are widely-used in Aramaic. Can be I overlook something with these 2 gallows for Daleth/Lamed. Both seem to be used for both phonemes.

tbc…

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