Re: VMs: VMS - Numbers?

["Larry Roux" <lroux@xxxxxxx>]

Thanks for the info.  The more I look at the linguistic structure of Turkish the more I think there is some connection.  But, as you say, theories are great until you find something disappointing and need to move on to the next one <grin>

Having read a lot of hand-written documents from 16th and early 17th century French it is more than evident that spelling was less of an importance than getting the idea across.  Not to mention shortening words any way you can to reduce having to dip that quill into the ink :)  Seriously, you get used to a lot of shortened words (parse for parroise, grendr for grenadier, pre for pierre, not to mention Xaintes, Saintes and Xayntes for all the same place) in older documents.  

Of course, that may be a hindrance as well.  Assuming you are on track due to some word translating as a word close to one you are looking for (ie burn is *close* to burun [nose] but it could just be burn after all) may draw you down the wrong road.  

I agree with what someone mentioned earlier - that the numbers are the first key to solving the document.  If we can just find one sentence that connects numbers to the pictures we could assume certain text; "Take 4 leaves and ..." or "the sky is broken into 6 sections, 3 of them...".

I think Robert got the numbers identified, now we need to go the next step.    





******************************
Larry Roux
Syracuse University
lroux@xxxxxxx
*******************************
>>> incoming@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 02/06/03 18:49 PM >>>
Hi everyone,

At 23:46 05/02/03 -0500, Larry Roux wrote:
I was following my line on the manuscript being in a Turkish dialect, and 
found something interesting....

While I agree that (though probably for reasons independent to yours) that 
Turkish is a strong candidate for the VMS' underlying language (along with 
Milanese-dialect Italian and Lingua Franca), may I strongly advise caution, 
insofar as modern Turkish spelling (and indeed its entire alphabet) was 
only really locked down in the 20th Century through the initiative of 
Mustafa Kemel Ataturk (AKA "the Father of Turkey").

In fact, to precis modern Turkish history in an obscenely small space: 
Ataturk also insisted that Turks threw away the fez (etc) to help drag 
Turkey into the 20th Century; and seemed to have been a basically sound, 
well-grounded person.

FWIW, a very good friend's father-in-law is a member of a (quite sizeable, 
as he tells it) group of Turks trying to revive Ataturk's ideas, as a kind 
of secular counterpoint to the more religious (dare I say "fundamentalist" 
without getting flamed?) political views gaining recent currency there.

Cheers, .....Nick Pelling.....

PS: even though I personally don't believe there is any solid evidence that 
the VMS has either (a) anything like a simple substitution cipher at its 
heart, or (b) anything to do with dates extending past 1480, I completely 
reserve the right to back you up to the hilt in trying to go for it. :-)

PPS: if you're serious about the link between the VMS & Turkish, you might 
be interested in "the language of the mutes", which was an early 
sign-language (completely apart from Monastic Sign Language) I came across 
while looking for influences for the body-language of the VMS' zodiac 
nymphs. Here's a pointer to a recent bibliography, with most of the 
references relevant to Ottoman mutes cut'n'pasted immediately below (though 
Fisher & Fisher seems to be "the daddy"):-

http://www.socsci.kun.nl/ped/whp/histeduc/mmiles/mesabib1.html

BOBOVIUS (1679) Serrai enderum, in: C. MAGNUS (ed) Quanto di più curioso 
... Turchia. (Parma)
Bobovius (also Ali Bey), a Polish musician and linguist who worked for many 
years at the Ottoman court, discussed the mutes and dwarfs there (pp. 
508-510). The older mutes taught the younger ones to express themselves 
with many varied signs ("insegnano a giouani esprimersi con infinità di 
cenni strauaganti'). Further details by Bobovius appear in FISHER & FISHER 
(q.v.). The account by RICAUT (q.v.) is based on information from Bobovius.

BON, Ottaviano (c.1608). [N.M. Penzer, [*] The Harem, London: Spring Books, 
pp. 34-37, shows that Bon's manuscripts were mistakenly attributed, 
translated and published as: WITHERS, Robert (1650) A description of the 
Grand Signor's Seraglio. London. They were earlier publ. in PURCHAS: 
Pilgrims (1625) Vol.II, ix, 1580-1611. See reprint: Samuel PURCHAS (1905) 
Hakluytus Posthumus or Purchas His Pilgrimes, IX, pp. 322-406, Glasgow: 
MacLehose.]
Account of the mutes and dwarfs at the Ottoman court, including the signing 
system (IX: 328, 362-63, 374-75, 380, 385) and notes on deformities (IX: 
369) Bon noted "...many dumbe men both old and young, who have libertie to 
goe in and out with leave of the Capee Agha; And this is worthie the 
observation, that in the Serraglio, both the King and others can reason and 
discourse of any thing as well and as distinctly, alla mutesca, by nods and 
signes, as they can with words: a thing well befitting the gravitie of the 
better sort of Turkes, who care not for much babling. The same is also used 
amongst the Sultanaes, and other the Kings Women: for with them likewise 
there are divers dumbe women, both old and young. And this hath beene an 
ancient custome in the Serraglio: wherefore they get as many Mutes as they 
can possibly find".

DALLAM, Thomas. [Diary for 1599: Account of an Organ Carryed to the Grand 
Seignor and Other Curious Matter]. In: J. Theodore BENT (ed) Early Voyages 
and Travels in the Levant. I.- The Diary of Master Thomas Dallam, 
1599-1600, etc. London: Hakluyt Society.
Visiting Emperor Mehmet III's court at Constantinople (pp. 69-70), organ 
builder Dallam saw 100 dwarfs and 100 'deaf & dumb' attendants. The latter 
used sign language, and "lett me understande by theire perfitt sins [signs] 
all thinges that they had sene the presente dow by its motions". (The 
'presente' was a musical organ and clock with mobile figures, e.g. a 
bushful of birds which sang and shook their wings.) See BON'S & RICAUT's 
later notes on these well-trained deaf men.

FISHER, C.G. & FISHER, A.W. (1987) [*] Topkapi Sarayi in the 
mid-Seventeenth century: Bobovi's description. Archivum Ottomanicum, X 
(1985 [1987]): 5-81.
Description by BOBOVIUS (q.v.), translated from Italian to French, and then 
by Fisher & Fisher to English, includes a few important details of the 
informal 'School of Signing' in which the younger deaf people at the 
Ottoman court learnt communication skills from the older ones.

LEWIS, Bernard (1965) Dilsiz. Encyclopedia of Islam, new edn, II: 277.
Short item on deaf mutes at the Ottoman court from 15C., with references

MILES, M. (2000) Signing in the Seraglio: mutes, dwarfs and jestures at the 
Ottoman court 1500-1700, Disability & Society 15: 115-134.
Full text also at: http://www.independentliving.org/LibArt/mmiles2.html and 
transl. in German: Gebärden im Serail: Stumme, Zwerge und Faxenmacher am 
osmanischen Hof 1500-1700. (Transl. by T. Flügel) Das Zeichen. Zeits. für 
Sprache und Kultur Gehörloser 14 (No. 53) 352-367.
Detailed appraisal of evidence on the signing system used by deaf servants 
and others at the Ottoman court, Istanbul.

ÖGÜT, Salim & ÖZCAN, Abdülkadir (1994) Dilsiz. Islâm Ansiklopedisi 9: 
303-305. Istanbul.
Article (in Turkish) addresses deaf-mutism in Islam, and history of mutes 
at the Ottoman court and their signing system.

RICAUT (sometimes RYCAUT), Sir Paul (1686) The History of the Present State 
of the Ottoman Empire. London: Clavell, Robinson & Churchill.
The diplomat Ricaut lived in Constantinople and wrote his History in the 
early 1660s (first edn published 1666 but post-dated 1667). After a 
detailed description of the education of future officers and servants of 
the Emperor (pp. 45-59), a chapter describes the large band of 'mutes and 
dwarfs' at court (pp. 62-64), mentioned earlier by DALLAM (q.v.). The 
mutes, "men naturally born deaf", during the daytime "learn and perfect 
themselves in the language of the Mutes, which is made up of several signs, 
in which by custome they can discourse and fully express themselves; not 
only to signifie their sense in familiar questions, but to recount Stories, 
understand the Fables of their own Religion, the Laws and Precepts of the 
Alchoran, the name of Mahomet, and what else may be capable of being 
expressed by the Tongue. ... But this language of the Mutes is so much in 
fashion in the Ottoman Court, that none almost but can deliver his sense in 
it, and is of much use to those who attend the Presence of the Grand 
Signior, before whom it is not reverent or seemly so much as to whisper." 
[The double negative 'none almost but' = 'almost all'!]

TIETZE-CONRAT, Erica (1957) Dwarfs and Jesters in Art. London: Phaidon. 111 
pp., 90 illustr.
pp. 93-94 discusses Karagos, the Turkish shadow play figures (plate no.20) 
citing German scholarly literature, and adds some remarks about dwarfs and 
mutes at the Ottoman court. See also p.99 and plate no.7, some dwarfs 
depicted with the Buddha.

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