Re: VMs: Ryland 228

[Gordon Rugg <g.rugg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I've tried reproducing VMS pages text-first and illustration-first, and
found that it's slightly easier to do text first.

However, for what it's worth, I agree that the VMS probably was drawn
illustration-first, though it's by no means easy to be sure about this. A
lot of the effects usually claimed as proof of illustration-first
production are also produced by text-first production - for instance, in
text-first illustration for a herbal page, you leave a predefined space
for stems, leaves, etc, and this can produce exactly the same sort of
cramped lettering that is usually claimed as evidence of
illustration-first composition. (The distinction between text-first and
illustration-first becomes a bit blurred at this point; I'm taking
"illustration first" to mean a physical sketch of the illustration, rather
than a mental plan to have a stem in the middle of the page and a leaf on
the top left, for instance.)

Also for what it's worth, there are some illustrations suggesting
text-first composition. In the water lily, for instance, the lower right
stalk comes out of the plant stem and then suddenly stops before some
text. This may have been intentional, but it's also consistent with the
text being first, and the illustrator starting a stalk before realising
that it would run into the text, and then having to abandon it.

A closing thought is that I suspect the manuscript was copied from
something like an "eight-up" rough draft. This would be something like a
bifolio-sized page containing miniature sketches of about eight pages of
illustrations, with the master text being supplied separately. This would
make sense of some of the apparent copying errors - for instance, the
plants with roots that look like nested cones might well have been
intended to have ridged tapering tuberous roots like carrots. This method
of planning is quite a bit faster than producing a full-sized draft of
each page. It also fits with the use of unique "labels" as the first word
of many pages - that makes sure that the right text goes with the right
illustration. (Though there are doubtless many other explanations which
make equally good sense!)

Best wishes,

Gordon

GC wrote:

> Thanks Dana,
>
> I've looked at many of these pages before.  I've been trying to
> determine the number of manuscripts written in brown ink from the
> 15th century in collections, and while there are a few, most are
> religious texts.  (not surprising since most books were religious
> texts).
>
> The description about the order of manuscript construction - text
> first, then illumination - does not, IMHO, fit the VMS, and just
> one other thing I think speaks against a scribal copy.  It
> appears, to me at least, that the majority of the herbals were
> drawn before the text was written in.  To me this points to the
> author and the illuminator being one and the same.
>
> I know we've covered this a few times before - one of these days
> I'm going to make a list... - oh well, not today anyway.
>
> GC
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx]On
> > Behalf Of DANA SCOTT
> > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 1:05 AM
> > To: vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: VMs: Ryland 228
> >
> >
> > Hello GC,
> >
> > Sounds like 'gall nuts' and 'iron salts' to me.
> > You may find the following to be of some interest:
> >
> > http://www.ceu.hu/medstud/manual/MMM/ink.html
> > http://www.regia.org/quill3.htm
> > http://www.swaen.com/medieval.html
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dana Scott
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "GC" <glenclaston@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 7:32 PM
> > Subject: RE: VMs: Ryland 228
> >
> >
> > > Nick, thanks for the info, and if you have time by
> > the end of the
> > > summer, I'll owe you a big one.
> > >
> > > You've obviously viewed your share of manuscripts, so
> > I'm going to
> > > toss something out and see what you think -
> > >
> > > Brown ink is nothing new by this time, but after viewing
> > > descriptions of many many manuscripts, I'm left with
> > the distinct
> > > impression that brown ink was not a "top shelf" item.
> >  It seems to
> > > have been used by a lot of monks, and I've also found several
> > > alchemical manuscripts in brown ink.  It seems to be far more
> > > common to find epistles and letters written in brown ink than
> > > manuscripts.  I haven't found another herbal written in brown
> > > ink - yet.
> > >
> > > The description of Ryland 228 says that it is a collection of
> > > religious papers as well as a small herbal written in
> > brown ink -
> > > very interesting.  The collection is from Yorkshire,
> > late 15th to
> > > early 16th century, right in my time frame, my
> > location and my ink
> > > of interest.  Ascham's Sacro Bosco manuscript is also
> > written in
> > > brown ink.  It may be nothing, but I'm hoping I can
> > find a match
> > > in the handwriting, and although the description
> > doesn't say the
> > > herbal is illustrated, I'm certainly hoping it is.
> > >
> > > GC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > [mailto:owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx]On
> > > > Behalf Of Nick Pelling
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 3:31 AM
> > > > To: vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: Re: VMs: Ryland 228
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi GC,
> > > >
> > > > At 18:28 13/05/2003 -0500, GC wrote:
> > > > >Not to press, but have you had time to view this
> > > > manuscript, or is
> > > > >the location of the manuscript out of your range of
> > > > travel?  How
> > > > >do I request a copy of this?  My goal is to shut down
> > > > the VMS list
> > > > >by the end of the year, and while yet another
> > Ascham manuscript
> > > > >may be nice historically, it's not all that
> > critical.  I'd just
> > > > >like to know for certain if it is one of his.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, I haven't been able to manufacture an
> > > > excuse to go into the
> > > > British Library over the last few weeks - much to my
> > > > annoyance, my
> > > > Things-To-Do list keeps filling up fractally. :-(
> > > >
> > > > Photocopying at the BL is only allowed on non-fragile
> > > > items (and is subject
> > > > to the normal copyright limits), and I guess C16 MSS
> > > > are unlikely to fall
> > > > in that category - so I guess getting someone to act as
> > > > your proxy (ie
> > > > examine it on your behalf) is just about your only option.
> > > >
> > > > Is anyone else here planning to drop by the BL?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers, .....Nick Pelling.....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________________________
> > > > ______________
> > > > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with
> > > > a body saying:
> > > > unsubscribe vms-list
> > >
> > >
> > ________________________________________________________
> > ______________
> > > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > with a body saying:
> > > unsubscribe vms-list
> > >
> > ________________________________________________________
> > ______________
> > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with
> > a body saying:
> > unsubscribe vms-list
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
> unsubscribe vms-list

______________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
unsubscribe vms-list