Re: VMs: could it not be a hoax (I would like it not to be it)

[Mart Vabar <mesinik@xxxxxx>]

On Mon, 19 May 2003, Gordon Rugg wrote:

> I think the important question is _whether_ the VMS could have been hoaxed, not who
> might have hoaxed it. There are good arguments for a late fifteenth century Italian
> hoaxer; for Kelley; and for Voynich himself.

Absolutely.
But somehow it seems, such a hoax is a little bit too much for a medieval 
man. They had maybe more time than contemporary people, but...
So, again - probably somebody from V. circles.
And this is, where physical examination could help.


If we could prouve, its old, then we will get a new question - where close to 
Europe (VMS layout is from Europe, true?)could exist a relative cultural vacuum 
between Christian, Jewish, Islamic hemispheres or known "heretic"  and 
"magical" teachings? Well, we have a little bit of astrology but that's all.


MV

PS.
I personally would like to believe, its not a hoax and to begin to explain 
to everybody par example, in older finno-ugric natural medicine it's
important, where to take water for washing what (in sauna, youknow) and where to 
put this water later etc. Also, I believe, I know some plants in VMS because I 
know what to search for - but this does not mean, the VMS is old, because in 
1800-something the traditions was much more alive and people was not afraid to 
show these - etc, etc, and I probably could interprete the text in some 
language. 
But fortunately I can keep myself back as long as I think, "they" in Yale will 
just not tell everybody, they got feint stuff (a rude provocation! - lets see, 
can they keep there balance?)
But what I want to say, this doesn't seem to be very medieval. It's very 
independant and this is a modern feature.


> 
> I don't think that physical examination of the VMS is likely to help much with this
> question.If the vellum or ink were shown to date from significantly after 1586, then
> that would eliminate a lot of possible explanations, and would strongly suggest a
> modern hoax. However, this doesn't appear likely - there's a lot of evidence
> suggesting that the VMS dates from 1470-1586, and no solid evidence (as far as I
> know) suggesting a later date. A date of 1470-1586 is consistent with all the main
> theories about what the VMS might be, so it doesn't help us a lot.
> 
> We can more or less rule out the possibility that the VMS is a non-encoded exotic
> language whose words correspond to Voynichese word breaks, since no natural language
> shows the more exotic features of Voynichese. We can also rule out the usual ciphers
> used up till 1586 - the crypto people have already (I presume!) checked for all of
> those, and found none.
> 
> That still leaves a variety of possibilities, including the following:
> 1: a natural language whose syllables correspond to Voynichese "words" (e.g. the
> Chinese hypothesis)
> 2: an encoded form of a natural language not widely spoken in Europe 1470-1586, and
> therefore not yet investigated by cryptographers
> 3: an unusual cypher (or an ordinary cypher concealed in a lot of gibberish)
> 4: a hoax
> 
> What I think we ought to be asking is whether we can exclude any of those
> possibilities. I think that (1) and (2) don't fit well with a variety of evidence,
> and that some well-chosen research questions would probably eliminate them. For
> instance, as Nick Pelling and others have pointed out, there isn't much
> schematisation in the botanical section - you don't find the sort of regular phrases
> and words that you see repeatedly in a normal herbal of this period. A bit of
> content analysis on ordinary herbals would give a set of figures which could then be
> compared with the VMS. There are presumably other questions which could narrow down
> the cryptographic possibilities - any takers on that?
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Gordon
> 
> Mart Vabar wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 19 May 2003, Gordon Rugg wrote:
> >
> > > key question is what type of evidence would either disprove the hoax
> > > hypothesis, or show that it is the most reasonable explanation for the
> > > VMS.
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Gordon
> >
> > *       Do we have any modern physical examination of VMS in Yale?
> > *       V. an people around him traded actively with antiquities, when the
> > Komintern bluff was subscribed (for british elections), this
> > group executed it.
> > *       Whence all there money?
> > *       Once more: (probably with help of provocations) V. - like many people
> > of this era - was expelled to Siberia. Every jail - probably in the past more
> > than today - is an university of crime. I suppose, he with some frends began to
> > counterfeit documents to help persecuted people. But then, the Parkinson's Law
> > was not yet published (and the old Chinamen, telling the same without humor,
> > unknown for most) - so they decided to fight against "system", not against the
> > crimes it committed. To fight even with help of crimes. But sorry, I lost the
> > thread...
> > *       Well, this is not "hard evidence" - if somebody in Yale looks at VMS and
> > says: not only paper is old, but the WRITING is old, then we could be happy...
> > *       Alas, such things probably dont arise from nothing and - do we have
> > anything of similar in medieval or antique world?
> >
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