Re: VMs: could it not be a hoax (I would like it not to be it)

["DANA SCOTT" <dscott520@xxxxxxx>]

Hello Mart,

Please share with us any herbal/plant identifications that you would like to
suggest. I would be most interested in seeing what you have found. I know
from experience that it usually takes a considerable amount of time and
often a bit of luck to come up with possible matches. All suggestions are
most welcomed. In certain instances we may find that the scribe of the VMS
has drawn portions of the plants in more than one place. Notice the copies
of roots made on f102r2 for instance. The roots at the top of the folio may
also be found in f47v and f32v and the roots at the bottom of f102r2 occur
in f18v and f23r. Upon closer examination, certain comparisons might also be
found in the text which may help as a cross reference when attempting to
decipher the code.

Regards,
Dana Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mart Vabar" <mesinik@xxxxxx>
To: <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: VMs: could it not be a hoax (I would like it not to be it)


>
>
> On Mon, 19 May 2003, Gordon Rugg wrote:
>
> > I think the important question is _whether_ the VMS could have been
hoaxed, not who
> > might have hoaxed it. There are good arguments for a late fifteenth
century Italian
> > hoaxer; for Kelley; and for Voynich himself.
>
> Absolutely.
> But somehow it seems, such a hoax is a little bit too much for a medieval
> man. They had maybe more time than contemporary people, but...
> So, again - probably somebody from V. circles.
> And this is, where physical examination could help.
>
>
> If we could prouve, its old, then we will get a new question - where close
to
> Europe (VMS layout is from Europe, true?)could exist a relative cultural
vacuum
> between Christian, Jewish, Islamic hemispheres or known "heretic"  and
> "magical" teachings? Well, we have a little bit of astrology but that's
all.
>
>
> MV
>
> PS.
> I personally would like to believe, its not a hoax and to begin to explain
> to everybody par example, in older finno-ugric natural medicine it's
> important, where to take water for washing what (in sauna, youknow) and
where to
> put this water later etc. Also, I believe, I know some plants in VMS
because I
> know what to search for - but this does not mean, the VMS is old, because
in
> 1800-something the traditions was much more alive and people was not
afraid to
> show these - etc, etc, and I probably could interprete the text in some
> language.
> But fortunately I can keep myself back as long as I think, "they" in Yale
will
> just not tell everybody, they got feint stuff (a rude provocation! - lets
see,
> can they keep there balance?)
> But what I want to say, this doesn't seem to be very medieval. It's very
> independant and this is a modern feature.
>
>
> >
> > I don't think that physical examination of the VMS is likely to help
much with this
> > question.If the vellum or ink were shown to date from significantly
after 1586, then
> > that would eliminate a lot of possible explanations, and would strongly
suggest a
> > modern hoax. However, this doesn't appear likely - there's a lot of
evidence
> > suggesting that the VMS dates from 1470-1586, and no solid evidence (as
far as I
> > know) suggesting a later date. A date of 1470-1586 is consistent with
all the main
> > theories about what the VMS might be, so it doesn't help us a lot.
> >
> > We can more or less rule out the possibility that the VMS is a
non-encoded exotic
> > language whose words correspond to Voynichese word breaks, since no
natural language
> > shows the more exotic features of Voynichese. We can also rule out the
usual ciphers
> > used up till 1586 - the crypto people have already (I presume!) checked
for all of
> > those, and found none.
> >
> > That still leaves a variety of possibilities, including the following:
> > 1: a natural language whose syllables correspond to Voynichese "words"
(e.g. the
> > Chinese hypothesis)
> > 2: an encoded form of a natural language not widely spoken in Europe
1470-1586, and
> > therefore not yet investigated by cryptographers
> > 3: an unusual cypher (or an ordinary cypher concealed in a lot of
gibberish)
> > 4: a hoax
> >
> > What I think we ought to be asking is whether we can exclude any of
those
> > possibilities. I think that (1) and (2) don't fit well with a variety of
evidence,
> > and that some well-chosen research questions would probably eliminate
them. For
> > instance, as Nick Pelling and others have pointed out, there isn't much
> > schematisation in the botanical section - you don't find the sort of
regular phrases
> > and words that you see repeatedly in a normal herbal of this period. A
bit of
> > content analysis on ordinary herbals would give a set of figures which
could then be
> > compared with the VMS. There are presumably other questions which could
narrow down
> > the cryptographic possibilities - any takers on that?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Gordon
> >
> > Mart Vabar wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 19 May 2003, Gordon Rugg wrote:
> > >
> > > > key question is what type of evidence would either disprove the hoax
> > > > hypothesis, or show that it is the most reasonable explanation for
the
> > > > VMS.
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > > Gordon
> > >
> > > *       Do we have any modern physical examination of VMS in Yale?
> > > *       V. an people around him traded actively with antiquities, when
the
> > > Komintern bluff was subscribed (for british elections), this
> > > group executed it.
> > > *       Whence all there money?
> > > *       Once more: (probably with help of provocations) V. - like many
people
> > > of this era - was expelled to Siberia. Every jail - probably in the
past more
> > > than today - is an university of crime. I suppose, he with some frends
began to
> > > counterfeit documents to help persecuted people. But then, the
Parkinson's Law
> > > was not yet published (and the old Chinamen, telling the same without
humor,
> > > unknown for most) - so they decided to fight against "system", not
against the
> > > crimes it committed. To fight even with help of crimes. But sorry, I
lost the
> > > thread...
> > > *       Well, this is not "hard evidence" - if somebody in Yale looks
at VMS and
> > > says: not only paper is old, but the WRITING is old, then we could be
happy...
> > > *       Alas, such things probably dont arise from nothing and - do we
have
> > > anything of similar in medieval or antique world?
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
> > > unsubscribe vms-list
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
> > unsubscribe vms-list
> >
>
> --
> kontaktinfo ja telefonid:
> http://www.ehi.ee/~mesinik
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
> unsubscribe vms-list
>
______________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
unsubscribe vms-list