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Re: VMs: [ha] [hb] not different languages

Hi everyone,

At 21:51 31/07/2003 -0500, GC wrote:
Currier referred to statistical differences in the Voynich as "languages",
and to writing style differences as "hands". In the Herbal section, there
are two Currier categories, "language A, hand 1", and "language B, hand 2",
the abbreviations for which I've used in earlier posts as "A1" and "B2". <....>
I've fallen into Rene's classification scheme, which identifies pages by their
sections and "language", making an Herbal page in "language A" [ha], and an
Herbal page in "language B" [hb]. The [h] is for "Herbal folio", the [a/b]
indicates the statistical "language", the only factor I'm concerned with,
since my study is confined to the initial herbal pages of the VMS.

My focus here is then on the term "language", as it applies to these two
statistical differences as defined by Currier.  Rene sought to put a better
face on it, concluding (correct me if I'm wrong), that these could not be a
difference in actual "language", but might instead reflect "dialect".  Nick
picked up on the term "dialect", which added further confusion to he whole
"language" and "hands" mess we've been handed down from Currier.  If you
know what I mean when I say "language A" or "hand 1", it's not that
difficult.  It's when others don't know and assume you're speaking of
"actual" language or "different" hand, that things get confusing to the
majority.  Add "dialect", and we're down another happy trail.

To my eyes, the entire VMS is expressed in a single systematic way - the same pair-like structures (qo, ol, al, or, ar, dy, of, ot, ee, air, ain, etc) I've been pointing to are evident on every single page of VMS text, and any statistical differences we're talking about appear as deviations from (or embellishments to) this homogeneous basic structure.

So, when I say that the VMS is written in a single "language", what I'm trying to say is that the VMS is written using a single system of expression (perhaps putting the few key-like sequences aside). In that context, what are we to make of differences between pages (or perhaps more accurately between bifolios)? I suggested "dialects", as (in the real world) they tend to be part of a larger social structure and have soft-edged / fluid boundaries between them.

But perhaps this is suggestive of the certainty I have that the pairified groups I've been describing form the fundamental building blocks of the VMS' language / system.

Of the 25% of words exlusive to [ha] or [hb], all you need do is write a
computer program to systematically change endings based on the beginning of
the word, and you can produce [hb] pages from [ha], or otherwise.  That's
not a "dialect" in any sense I understand the term.

Curiously, that's almostly exactly the sense in which I used the term - that of two or more systems which have their own localised spelling/pronunciation, but which are recognisably and demonstrably part of a larger social whole, and which can be conceptually mapped between each other with reasonable success. What does "dialect" mean to you, GC?

The differences between the two are not that numerous, and through a little
study they can all be matched up.  What's interesting is that for every
ending in [hb], there seem to be at least two endings in [ha] that match up.
The assumption that [hb] is a later language comes to mind, given the order
of the folio presentation, which would make this situation an "adaptation"
on the part of the author.  In [hb] for instance, c89 occurs 333 out of 335
times.  You can counter this and arrive at similar statistics in [ha] by
replacing the same [ha] word structures with the ending cc9 or 089.  You can
effectively offset most [hb] words ending in 89 by changing the ending to
c9, thus making it an [ha] word.  am is common to one specific group, and
has specific replacements in the other, as well as a select few word
beginnings. Other worthy representations I can't present in text because I
don't speak EVA.

These are great results, which I'd love to see more of. :-)

It's funny that even these "dialects" are mathematically driven, but to what
purpose?  (If you know the answer, does this make it a rhetorical question,
or simply a question with an obvious answer?)

For me, "dialect" in the context of the VMS is neither a cryptological (code) nor a linguistic (language) construct, but rather a *behavioural* (statistical) one - it's what we observe the VMS "doing", how we observe it varying locally. Where that leads to is another matter... hopefully the answer. :-)

Cheers, .....Nick Pelling..... 


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