VMs: RE: RE: [ha] [hb] not different languages

["GC" <glenclaston@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Thanks John,

That's what I was looking for!

GC

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx]On
> Behalf Of John Grove
> Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 6:40 AM
> To: vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: VMs: RE: [ha] [hb] not different languages
>
>
> Glen,
>
> 	FWIW, the (modern browsers only) view of the vmsquires layout
> that I posted a while back is located at
> http://www.morewood.net/voynich/vmsquires.html
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx]On
> Behalf Of GC
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:51 PM
> To: VMS List
> Subject: VMs: [ha] [hb] not different languages
>
>
> hey all,
>
> Every once in a great while (every other day for me, it seems), we make a
> post that invites the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune to rain down
> upon us. Here is mine for the week.  (So it's been a slow week, what can I
> say?)
>
> (Before I get started, John Grove - can you point me to your *new*
> allocations of proper bifoliaton?  I think I'm ready to incorporate those
> data at this time.)
>
> Currier referred to statistical differences in the Voynich as "languages",
> and to writing style differences as "hands".  In the Herbal section, there
> are two Currier categories, "language A, hand 1", and "language
> B, hand 2",
> the abbreviations for which I've used in earlier posts as "A1"
> and "B2".  It
> is a given that the differences in writing style exist, and that in the
> Herbal section all "A" pages can be relatively classified as being written
> in "hand 1" and all "B" pages written in "hand 2".  These are then
> relatively unnecessary markers, and the styles are somewhat ambiguous in
> sections, making them a subjective determination in some instances.  I've
> fallen into Rene's classification scheme, which identifies pages by their
> sections and "language", making an Herbal page in "language A"
> [ha], and an
> Herbal page in "language B" [hb]. The [h] is for "Herbal folio", the [a/b]
> indicates the statistical "language", the only factor I'm concerned with,
> since my study is confined to the initial herbal pages of the VMS.
>
> My focus here is then on the term "language", as it applies to these two
> statistical differences as defined by Currier.  Rene sought to
> put a better
> face on it, concluding (correct me if I'm wrong), that these
> could not be a
> difference in actual "language", but might instead reflect
> "dialect".  Nick
> picked up on the term "dialect", which added further confusion to he whole
> "language" and "hands" mess we've been handed down from Currier.  If you
> know what I mean when I say "language A" or "hand 1", it's not that
> difficult.  It's when others don't know and assume you're speaking of
> "actual" language or "different" hand, that things get confusing to the
> majority.  Add "dialect", and we're down another happy trail.
>
> Let me clear this all up for those who are as confused as I can
> be when I'm
> off my lithium - [ha] is a statistic, [hb] is another statistic,
> and neither
> has to do with real "language", rather the way the VMS "words" (apparent
> groupings) are written.  The "hands" Currier sees are evident in
> many pages,
> but in some others not so evident.  They are "transitional"
> artifacts, that
> can easily be explained by the writing of the same author over
> time, through
> sickness, or a variety of other occurrences.  Again I offer the
> challenge to
> anyone to find a repetitive difference between the two "hands".
>  Conclusion - one author, long time, Charlie.  (That's not the
> only evidence
> we have of an extended time period in writing.)
>
> In the Herbal section, as I've reported, we have about 50% of the words
> shared between statistic A [ha] pages and statistic B [hb] pages.
>  About 25%
> of the words are common only to [ha] or [hb], and the other 25% occur only
> once in the herbal section, a statistic that at first makes them
> unworthy of
> classification.
>
> I'm willing to step out on a limb (call it a concrete runway with steel
> structured support beams) that these are not different "languages", not
> "dialects", but selective differences, for reasons to be determined.
>
> Of the 25% of words exlusive to [ha] or [hb], all you need do is write a
> computer program to systematically change endings based on the
> beginning of
> the word, and you can produce [hb] pages from [ha], or otherwise.  That's
> not a "dialect" in any sense I understand the term.
>
> The differences between the two are not that numerous, and
> through a little
> study they can all be matched up.  What's interesting is that for every
> ending in [hb], there seem to be at least two endings in [ha]
> that match up.
> The assumption that [hb] is a later language comes to mind, given
> the order
> of the folio presentation, which would make this situation an "adaptation"
> on the part of the author.  In [hb] for instance, c89 occurs 333
> out of 335
> times.  You can counter this and arrive at similar statistics in [ha] by
> replacing the same [ha] word structures with the ending cc9 or
> 089.  You can
> effectively offset most [hb] words ending in 89 by changing the ending to
> c9, thus making it an [ha] word.  am is common to one specific group, and
> has specific replacements in the other, as well as a select few word
> beginnings. Other worthy representations I can't present in text because I
> don't speak EVA.
>
> The thing is, you don't have to deal with the 50% that are
> common, but only
> the 25% that are different and exclusive.  When you then apply this this
> knowledge to many of the "unique" words, not that many are unique
> any more.
> It's funny that even these "dialects" are mathematically driven,
> but to what
> purpose?  (If you know the answer, does this make it a rhetorical
> question,
> or simply a question with an obvious answer?)
>
> Pages of raw data and evidentiary conclusions will be forthcoming, in an
> imagery I can deal with apart from the text base of this list.  The bottom
> line is, if you can program it, it's an algorithmic solution of
> one sort or
> another, and since no language I know of has dialects based on simple
> algorithmic replacement, we can exclude the phrase "dialect" from our
> discussion of [ha/hb] as statistical entities, and once and for
> all conclude
> that these are not different "languages" at all, rather
> variations based on
> rather strict rules of substitution.
>
> BTW Larry, if your 'grins' were directed at me for my need to
> re-transcribe
> the VMS, I'm happy for the compliment.  If not, I'm proud of the
> person you
> refer to who has taken it upon him/herself to feed their own
> interpretation,
> without relying on the willingness of others to shape their opinions.
> Kudos.
>
> GC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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