Re: VMs: dating the VMs

["Maurizio M. Gavioli" <mmg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

At 11:03 24/02/2004 -0800, Manfred Staudinger wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:53:36 +0100, "Maurizio M. Gavioli" wrote:
> > I would extend this is two directions (probably obvious but anyway useful
> > note: I am trying to see things from the perspective of a late-medieval /
> > early modern scribe; so "you" is not "someone among us, 21th c.
> > readers/writers" but an ancient scribe).
>
> Using a scribe? You cannot use him for the secrete writing nor in the
> process of encoding. So let him copying meaningless symbols on costly
> vellum? I can't imagine this.

As I answered to another reply, I was noting that any codex more or less 
implies a kind of indirection, i.e. assumes a previous source (it is 
theoretically possible to create a codex from scratch but, as you say, 
highly improbable). The source can be another codex (which may be of ANY 
previous date) or another kind of material. I was not making any statement 
about the Vms in particular.

In the particular case of the Vms, the maker of the codex most likely is 
not USING a scribe, but IS the scribe.

> > 2) The source you are copying/assembling from can be older: "you" may
> > be a XVI c. scribe copying a Cicero's oration...
>
> That's correct. But the task of copying is by no means a trivial one.
> Each sentence has to have a meaning and the sentences have to tell
> something for the reader ...

Usually, but not necessarily. There are lots of examples where it is 
evident that the copier did not understand what was copying, usually just a 
sentence, that's true, not an entire book!, but this shows that the act of 
copying included the possibility of copying without understanding.

Again, I am not saying that this happened in the Vms case but simply that 
it is a possibility of the medieval codex production system.

> > Space around the writing area is difficult to estimate: most codices have
> > been trimmed and re-trimmed.
>
> I should have given examples: see 3r or 34r. What I wanted to say there
> is much space unused beside the margin which varies considerably too.
> If you try to measure the writing area on pages with drawings you will
> see much variation. This would mean the text is totally dependent on the 
> drawings
> and not vice versa. On 14r or 34r you can see two text portions belonging to
> different parts of the drawing.

OK. My sentence was also too terse: it is unlike that the Vms has been 
significantly trimmed (see also below), so it presumably shows its original 
proportions. My point was that is difficult to compare them to other more 
'normal' codices, because most of them have been repeatedly trimmed and do 
not show their original proportions any more.

> > Compared with the relative crudeness of the drawings, this might indicate
> > the Vms is not a *final* product, but an intermediate step of a longer
> > process (not necessarily actually carried to its end).
>
> If we don't understand the concepts behind how can we judge crudeness
> of drawings? But for sure, vellum stands for definitely (final if you
> want)!

Well, again, yes and no. The entire _peciae_ system of the medieval 
universities, albeit very specialized, is an example of intermediate vellum 
steps. I still have to finish downloading the Japanese repros, so I still 
have not seen the WHOLE ms., but I have already seen not a few pages of 
irregular shape (at least to judge from the repros); this MIGHT mean that 
the ms. has been done on 'second-choice' skins or on left-overs of other 
codices; if this is true (and assuming the writer did attached a 
non-secondary importance to the ms.), this MIGHT be another clue of a 
'draft' ms. from which, say, 'better' copies would be taken later (or 
simply that he could not afford better skins! ;-) )

As you just said, book production (always but particularly on vellum) was 
not a trivial task and this resulted in a wide variety of solutions and 
practices. Codices were copied from other codices, not necessarily 
understanding what was being copied, 'intermediate' codices were prepared 
(for instance to work as reference text) from which to copy the 'real' 
codices, maybe different for destinations, intended use, quality level, 
etc... Each of them may or may not apply to the Vms, and this makes things 
even more complex...

Ciao,

        Maurizio


 Maurizio M. Gavioli -  VistaMare  Software
 via San Bernardo 5, I-16030 Pieve Ligure, ITALY
 http://www.vistamaresoft.com/

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