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Re: VMs: 1006184 & 1006185
Compare Betonica
Old Herbal: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/jpegs/ashmole/1500/00001414.jpg
New Herbal: http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/b/betowo35-l.jpg
One would not think the two plants were even related. The idea of an Herbal was not to realistically identify the plant, but to give the idea of the plant. The real use of the Herbal was the use of and how to prepare the medicine. Modern herbals are much more realistic than was necessary (or expected) than the old days.
The point is, don't poo poo an identification just because it does not look like what is in your backyard. Granted, most (if not all) identifications in the Voy are sketchy at best, but you gotta start somewhere.
Larry Roux
Syracuse University
lroux@xxxxxxx
>>> w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/09/04 01:13PM >>>
Hi
fascinating.
but I'd need some details to go with the drawings.
William
On 9 Jun 2004, at 16:21, Larry Roux wrote:
> Here are a couple
>
> http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/his/immi/vermont/
> vermontindex2-17.html
>
> http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/jpegs/ashmole/
> 1500/
>
>
>
>
> Larry Roux
> Syracuse University
> lroux@xxxxxxx
>
>
>>>> w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/09/04 10:55AM >>>
> Hi
>
> Can you give me some urls for older herbal piccies?
>
> Vines - yes, to be sure - but not all wiped out (cf Chile). And I'd
> bet that a Roman would recognize current vines as indeed vines.
>
> William
>
>
> On 9 Jun 2004, at 15:01, Larry Roux wrote:
>
>> Instead of looking at real life examples you should troll the web and
>> look at herbals from the timeframe. They rarely look much like the
>> plants being depicted.
>>
>> As for changes over 500 years, in many cases you are correct, but
>> there are certainly a lot of examples of species of plants being
>> changed/overrun over that timeframe. Heck, the grape plants in France
>> are all less than 100 years old - and all come from California and
>> other countries after the entire group of French vines was wiped out.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry Roux
>> Syracuse University
>> lroux@xxxxxxx
>>
>>
>>>>> w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/09/04 09:45AM >>>
>> Hi
>>
>> That is fine - but can these experts also offer us some descriptions
>> of
>> how the illustrations differ from the plants 'depicted'? If we had
>> that then we'd know more about what allowances to make wrt the VMS
>> illustrations.
>>
>> Please don't misunderstand me. I'm simply concerned to clarify the
>> basis on which people can say of any VMS illustration that it 'is of
>> plant xxxxx'. Currently I'm underwhelmed by any of the suggestions
>> offered, and really bothered that I can stroll into my garden to check
>> (and look in piles of books I have to support the gardening) and find
>> many many important taxonomical differences. If folk can genuinely
>> explain away those differences then let's hear about it.
>>
>> On the face of it the possibility that plants evolved a lot over 500
>> years seems implausible. That drawings might be
>> systematically/stylistically 'erroneous' is interesting but I need the
>> evidence.
>>
>> That's all.
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>> On 9 Jun 2004, at 12:37, Rene Zandbergen wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> --- William Edmondson <w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> The point I am trying to make (non-tetchily) is
>>>> simply that 'looks-like'
>>>> is very subjective. The drawing in question doesn't
>>>> look like a
>>>> strawberry plant - any strawberry plant - for a
>>>> number of reasons I listed.
>>>
>>> It being subjective is true, but the real problem
>>> is even worse. It was never really the purpose
>>> of ME MS herbals to create lookalikes of the
>>> plants, so the same objection could be applied
>>> to a great many ME herbal drawings which are
>>> known to represent a particular plant (the text
>>> being readable).
>>> I'm not a medieval herbal expert, but the above
>>> statement comes not from me, but from people who
>>> are (were).
>>>
>>> Cheers, Rene
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>> Dr William Edmondson
>> School of Computer Science
>> University of Birmingham
>> Edgbaston B15 2TT
>> UK
>>
>> Voice: +44-121-414-4763
>> email: w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxx
>>
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>>
> Dr William Edmondson
> School of Computer Science
> University of Birmingham
> Edgbaston B15 2TT
> UK
>
> Voice: +44-121-414-4763
> email: w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxx
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
> unsubscribe vms-list
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
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>
>
Dr William Edmondson
School of Computer Science
University of Birmingham
Edgbaston B15 2TT
UK
Voice: +44-121-414-4763
email: w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxx
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