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Re: VMs: 1006184 & 1006185



Hi

I don't poo-poo identifications - I just need to be convinced. My collection of books and my backyard are both quite extensive, and I've been growing plants for years - from seed, as grown-on volunteers, etc.

The interesting point about the images in the urls you offer is that plants are identifiable, and some essential morphology is well represented. For example, in the two urls below, the opposing leaves (pairs) are well shown, as is the shape (lanceolate) and the toothed edges and the petiole. Proportions are not good - but the flower stem/spike as continuation of main stem is fine. The square stem is not recorded in the earlier image. The more modern is clearly of a labiate; the earlier is not so clear, but with textual commentary would be. But it does indeed look like the more modern in many respects.

If you look at, for example, 141 in the vermont images (see previous email) the top plant is clearly a parsnip, as the text reports. There is good fidelity in general terms (and note in relation to the parsnip that the root is the business - not the umbellifer flower, which is not shown).

My comment on the strawberries is that the morphology in the VMS drawing is hopelessly wrong in so many respects. I'm looking for more than just impressions. Is that wrong?

With the VMS there is so little certainty, as was pointed out before, that we cannot afford to distract ourselves.

I may come across as tetchy, rude, opinionated.... but I try not to be (and apols to all if I fail there). If we are going to establish a wiki site on the basis of the new images we should be careful about the quality of the ideas/information we put there.

Cheers

William



On 9 Jun 2004, at 18:47, Larry Roux wrote:

Compare Betonica
Old Herbal: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/jpegs/ashmole/ 1500/00001414.jpg
New Herbal: http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/b/betowo35-l.jpg
One would not think the two plants were even related. The idea of an Herbal was not to realistically identify the plant, but to give the idea of the plant. The real use of the Herbal was the use of and how to prepare the medicine. Modern herbals are much more realistic than was necessary (or expected) than the old days.


The point is, don't poo poo an identification just because it does not look like what is in your backyard. Granted, most (if not all) identifications in the Voy are sketchy at best, but you gotta start somewhere.






Larry Roux Syracuse University lroux@xxxxxxx


w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/09/04 01:13PM >>>
Hi

fascinating.

but I'd need some details to go with the drawings.

William
On 9 Jun 2004, at 16:21, Larry Roux wrote:

Here are a couple

http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/his/immi/vermont/
vermontindex2-17.html

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/jpegs/ashmole/
1500/




Larry Roux Syracuse University lroux@xxxxxxx


w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/09/04 10:55AM >>>
Hi

Can you give me some urls for older herbal piccies?

Vines - yes, to be sure - but not all wiped out (cf Chile).  And I'd
bet that a Roman would recognize current vines as indeed vines.

William


On 9 Jun 2004, at 15:01, Larry Roux wrote:


Instead of looking at real life examples you should troll the web and
look at herbals from the timeframe.  They rarely look much like the
plants being depicted.

As for changes over 500 years, in many cases you are correct, but
there are certainly a lot of examples of species of plants being
changed/overrun over that timeframe. Heck, the grape plants in France
are all less than 100 years old - and all come from California and
other countries after the entire group of French vines was wiped out.





Larry Roux Syracuse University lroux@xxxxxxx


w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/09/04 09:45AM >>>
Hi

That is fine - but can these experts also offer us some descriptions
of
how the illustrations differ from the plants 'depicted'?  If we had
that then we'd know more about what allowances to make wrt the VMS
illustrations.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm simply concerned to clarify the
basis on which people can say of any VMS illustration that it 'is of
plant xxxxx'. Currently I'm underwhelmed by any of the suggestions
offered, and really bothered that I can stroll into my garden to check
(and look in piles of books I have to support the gardening) and find
many many important taxonomical differences. If folk can genuinely
explain away those differences then let's hear about it.


On the face of it the possibility that plants evolved a lot over 500
years seems implausible. That drawings might be
systematically/stylistically 'erroneous' is interesting but I need the
evidence.


That's all.

William


On 9 Jun 2004, at 12:37, Rene Zandbergen wrote:



--- William Edmondson <w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi

The point I am trying to make (non-tetchily) is
simply that 'looks-like'
is very subjective.  The drawing in question doesn't
look like a
strawberry plant - any strawberry plant - for a
number of reasons I  listed.

It being subjective is true, but the real problem is even worse. It was never really the purpose of ME MS herbals to create lookalikes of the plants, so the same objection could be applied to a great many ME herbal drawings which are known to represent a particular plant (the text being readable). I'm not a medieval herbal expert, but the above statement comes not from me, but from people who are (were).

Cheers, Rene




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Dr William Edmondson
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Dr William Edmondson
School of Computer Science
University of Birmingham
Edgbaston B15 2TT
UK

Voice: +44-121-414-4763
email: w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxx

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Dr William Edmondson
School of Computer Science
University of Birmingham
Edgbaston B15 2TT
UK

Voice: +44-121-414-4763
email: w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxx

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Dr William Edmondson
School of Computer Science
University of Birmingham
Edgbaston B15 2TT
UK

Voice: +44-121-414-4763
email: w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxx

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To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
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