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Re: VMs: 1006184 & 1006185
There is nothing wrong with having your opinion! I can't say that I agree with some of the plant identifications either.
Heck, until something breaks, EVERYTHING in regards to the Voy is opinion.
Larry Roux
Syracuse University
lroux@xxxxxxx
>>> w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/09/04 14:23 PM >>>
Hi
I don't poo-poo identifications - I just need to be convinced. My
collection of books and my backyard are both quite extensive, and I've
been growing plants for years - from seed, as grown-on volunteers, etc.
The interesting point about the images in the urls you offer is that
plants are identifiable, and some essential morphology is well
represented. For example, in the two urls below, the opposing leaves
(pairs) are well shown, as is the shape (lanceolate) and the toothed
edges and the petiole. Proportions are not good - but the flower
stem/spike as continuation of main stem is fine. The square stem is
not recorded in the earlier image. The more modern is clearly of a
labiate; the earlier is not so clear, but with textual commentary would
be. But it does indeed look like the more modern in many respects.
If you look at, for example, 141 in the vermont images (see previous
email) the top plant is clearly a parsnip, as the text reports. There
is good fidelity in general terms (and note in relation to the parsnip
that the root is the business - not the umbellifer flower, which is not
shown).
My comment on the strawberries is that the morphology in the VMS
drawing is hopelessly wrong in so many respects. I'm looking for more
than just impressions. Is that wrong?
With the VMS there is so little certainty, as was pointed out before,
that we cannot afford to distract ourselves.
I may come across as tetchy, rude, opinionated.... but I try not to be
(and apols to all if I fail there). If we are going to establish a
wiki site on the basis of the new images we should be careful about the
quality of the ideas/information we put there.
Cheers
William
On 9 Jun 2004, at 18:47, Larry Roux wrote:
> Compare Betonica
> Old Herbal:
> http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/jpegs/ashmole/
> 1500/00001414.jpg
> New Herbal: http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/b/betowo35-l.jpg
> One would not think the two plants were even related. The idea of an
> Herbal was not to realistically identify the plant, but to give the
> idea of the plant. The real use of the Herbal was the use of and how
> to prepare the medicine. Modern herbals are much more realistic than
> was necessary (or expected) than the old days.
>
> The point is, don't poo poo an identification just because it does not
> look like what is in your backyard. Granted, most (if not all)
> identifications in the Voy are sketchy at best, but you gotta start
> somewhere.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Larry Roux
> Syracuse University
> lroux@xxxxxxx
>
>
>>>> w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/09/04 01:13PM >>>
> Hi
>
> fascinating.
>
> but I'd need some details to go with the drawings.
>
> William
> On 9 Jun 2004, at 16:21, Larry Roux wrote:
>
>> Here are a couple
>>
>> http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/his/immi/vermont/
>> vermontindex2-17.html
>>
>> http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/jpegs/ashmole/
>> 1500/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry Roux
>> Syracuse University
>> lroux@xxxxxxx
>>
>>
>>>>> w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/09/04 10:55AM >>>
>> Hi
>>
>> Can you give me some urls for older herbal piccies?
>>
>> Vines - yes, to be sure - but not all wiped out (cf Chile). And I'd
>> bet that a Roman would recognize current vines as indeed vines.
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>> On 9 Jun 2004, at 15:01, Larry Roux wrote:
>>
>>> Instead of looking at real life examples you should troll the web and
>>> look at herbals from the timeframe. They rarely look much like the
>>> plants being depicted.
>>>
>>> As for changes over 500 years, in many cases you are correct, but
>>> there are certainly a lot of examples of species of plants being
>>> changed/overrun over that timeframe. Heck, the grape plants in
>>> France
>>> are all less than 100 years old - and all come from California and
>>> other countries after the entire group of French vines was wiped out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Larry Roux
>>> Syracuse University
>>> lroux@xxxxxxx
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/09/04 09:45AM >>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> That is fine - but can these experts also offer us some descriptions
>>> of
>>> how the illustrations differ from the plants 'depicted'? If we had
>>> that then we'd know more about what allowances to make wrt the VMS
>>> illustrations.
>>>
>>> Please don't misunderstand me. I'm simply concerned to clarify the
>>> basis on which people can say of any VMS illustration that it 'is of
>>> plant xxxxx'. Currently I'm underwhelmed by any of the suggestions
>>> offered, and really bothered that I can stroll into my garden to
>>> check
>>> (and look in piles of books I have to support the gardening) and find
>>> many many important taxonomical differences. If folk can genuinely
>>> explain away those differences then let's hear about it.
>>>
>>> On the face of it the possibility that plants evolved a lot over 500
>>> years seems implausible. That drawings might be
>>> systematically/stylistically 'erroneous' is interesting but I need
>>> the
>>> evidence.
>>>
>>> That's all.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9 Jun 2004, at 12:37, Rene Zandbergen wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- William Edmondson <w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>>> The point I am trying to make (non-tetchily) is
>>>>> simply that 'looks-like'
>>>>> is very subjective. The drawing in question doesn't
>>>>> look like a
>>>>> strawberry plant - any strawberry plant - for a
>>>>> number of reasons I listed.
>>>>
>>>> It being subjective is true, but the real problem
>>>> is even worse. It was never really the purpose
>>>> of ME MS herbals to create lookalikes of the
>>>> plants, so the same objection could be applied
>>>> to a great many ME herbal drawings which are
>>>> known to represent a particular plant (the text
>>>> being readable).
>>>> I'm not a medieval herbal expert, but the above
>>>> statement comes not from me, but from people who
>>>> are (were).
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Rene
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>> Dr William Edmondson
>>> School of Computer Science
>>> University of Birmingham
>>> Edgbaston B15 2TT
>>> UK
>>>
>>> Voice: +44-121-414-4763
>>> email: w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>
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>>>
>> Dr William Edmondson
>> School of Computer Science
>> University of Birmingham
>> Edgbaston B15 2TT
>> UK
>>
>> Voice: +44-121-414-4763
>> email: w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
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>>
> Dr William Edmondson
> School of Computer Science
> University of Birmingham
> Edgbaston B15 2TT
> UK
>
> Voice: +44-121-414-4763
> email: w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxx
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
> unsubscribe vms-list
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
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>
>
Dr William Edmondson
School of Computer Science
University of Birmingham
Edgbaston B15 2TT
UK
Voice: +44-121-414-4763
email: w.h.edmondson@xxxxxxxxxx
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