Re: VMs: Thoughts about Roman numbers in the VMS

["GC" <gc-@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

> > the VM script is definitely a set of ARTIFICIALLY invented characters  -
> > quite different from naturally
> > developed scripts - the intent being to make the characters simpler and
> > organized in some logical system.
>
> Couldn't you come up with similar mappings for the latin alphabet? "i",
"n" and
> "m" seem to be variations of each other, "f", "t" and "l" form a group, as
do
> "e", "c" and "o", and "b", "d" and "k"... ;-)
>
>    Elmar

Technically speaking, the VMS script is not "invented".  The majority of the
glyphs come from Latin abbreviations, and others are sourced in early
shorthand symbols.  At the time the VMS was written, the art os shorthand
was probably so rudimentary that Latin abbreviations and some
religious/astrological shorthand was used hand in hand to form a
"tachygraphic" system, one not totally shorthand, but allowing for speed and
ease of writing.  None of us can come up with any examples of these from the
period in question (with the exception of astronomical use of abbreviations
similar to the VMS), but we do know that systems such as this were used to
record sermons, and clarks in courts and parliaments used such a system to
keep accurate notes, which were transcribed back later to form official
documents.  The intermediate notes do not appear to have survived however,
sad to say.  We have not found any examples to date, but it is also known
that doctors used a form of tachygraphic notation as well.

In this sense then, the VMS author did not "invent" the alphabet, rather he
selected it from a known set of abbreviations and symbols, possibly to make
it appear as something written in a tachygraphic system, although it is
obviously nothing of the sort.

Addressing your point - "the intent being to make the characters simpler and
organized in some logical system":  This is a study in the organization of
the human mind, more than anything.  Nick has some good examples of code
alphabets by Tranchedino, but I haven't had the opportunity to view them
yet.  Official codes would hopefully be composed of random glyphs in an
invented alphabet, but one would have to study them to see if they form a
pattern.  On the other hand, invented alphabets from Trithemius, Agrippa,
Vigenere and Porta all exhibit a logical layout.  The variations of the
glyphs in these alphabets are variations on basic themes. Where did I see
something like that before?  Oh yes, in the VMS.  The human mind has a
tendency to create order, and relate orderly items one to another.  "Random"
is simply not the way we think, and certainly not the way a medieval doctor
would think, when the educational drive was to relate all things one to the
other, and find things (real or imaginary) that link two totally unique
objects together.   I suggest you read early books on the healing properties
and virtues of stones, animals, etc., that give these objects and animal
powers on the same level as herbs and medicines based on thier perceived
astrological "vertues".   The thinking was systemically  systematic, and it
would be illogical to assume that this infused systemic thinking would be
somehow avoided by the VMS author in his own creation.

Food for thought, coming from the vast wasteland that is - GC





----- Original Message ----- 
From: <elvogt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: VMs: Thoughts about Roman numbers in the VMS


> Zitat von Jan <hurychj@xxxxxxxxx>:
>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > the "roman numeral" hypothesis has one plus: it would explain the
"shortness"
> > of VM "words". Well,
> > not entirely, what is the longest one (MDCCCLXXXVIII)?
>
> That's for numbers <2000.
>
> IIRC, currently there are about 8000 different groups identified in the
VM, so
> in straightforward Roman numberals, that'd go up to something like
> MMMMMMMDCCCLXXXVIII. :-O
>
> (I'm also not sure how old the use of "IV" instead of "IIII" is.)
>
> >
> > However, we have more characters in the VM than there is basic Roman
numerals
> >  (I,V,X,L, etc..)
> > Secondly, it would require the codebook of  - how many different "words"
are
> > in the VM? :-)
>
> It must be an awful mess to sort 8000 index cards manually for your
codebook...
> but mind you that the details of the VM system definitely differ from
Roman
> numbering. (Otherwise we'd have more triplet glyphs than "e" and "i".)
>
> > ...
> > the VM script is definitely a set of ARTIFICIALLY invented characters  -
> > quite different from naturally
> > developed scripts - the intent being to make the characters simpler and
> > organized in some logical system.
>
> Couldn't you come up with similar mappings for the latin alphabet? "i",
"n" and
> "m" seem to be variations of each other, "f", "t" and "l" form a group, as
do
> "e", "c" and "o", and "b", "d" and "k"... ;-)
>
>    Elmar
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> debitel.net Webmail
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
> unsubscribe vms-list

______________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
unsubscribe vms-list