Re: VMs: Jung and Modern/Traditional Astrology?

["GC" <gc-@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Pamela,

Hi, we haven't spoken before, but I do need to clear up a couple of points
you made.

> Here are a few inscriptions from almanacs printed in
> England in the seventeenth century.  Almanacs were
> calculated by "philomaths"--people who liked to crunch
> numbers--and sold to astrologers, who used them to
> make predictions following the techniques of
> traditional astrology.  Almanacs fall into the
> category of historical evidence of the vitality of
> astrology, as their manufacture would not pay for the
> cost of printing unless they had an audience.

The books you listed are 16th century publications, not 17th century.  As
apparent by the titles of the authors themselves (doctors in physike), these
were not drawn up by "philomaths", but by the doctors themselves.  I have
copies of all the publications you have listed, as well as several others
from this time period, and if they are viewed in their proper context, a
pattern of publication emerges that clearly demonstrates their purpose.

The almanacs themselves contain little or no astrological material.  They
contain saints days, moon cycles, weather predictions and predictions on
cycles of pestilence, drawn from the knowledge that warm and damp weather is
associated with the spread of certain diseases, and wrongly attributed to
the motions of the moon and the zodiac.  Doctor Ascham offers the doubting
opinion in one of his connected works that these attributions are made only
because no one has yet offered a better explanation.

When I referred to "pattern of publication", I meant that each book has
references to other books from the same publisher, and are meant to be
purchased as a set.  These sets usually include an almanac, an herbal, and
sometimes books on urine and phlebotomy, books on the healing powers of
stones, etc.  The almanacs themselves were usually a single large page
folded twice to form a foldout of 8 pages, and were published annually,
while the peripheral books were reissued only periodically when the supply
ran out.  The purpose of these books was clearly medical, and apart from
very promising titles, the information contained had almost everything to do
with the diagnosis and treatment of disease.  The first publication of a set
of books like this was by Richard Banckes in 1525.

In each case in 16th century England, publications on astronomy/astrology
are connected to medicine exclusively, and it is not until toward the middle
of the 17th century that books begin to appear on the "predictive power" of
astrology as a stand-alone "science".  By this time a battle of words over
the efficacy of astrology was well underway, and astrology was losing ground
to reason, especially when connected to medicine and the ability to predict
the weather and cataclysmic events.

Hope this is useful.

GC




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pamela Richards" <spirlhelix@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: VMs: Jung and Modern/Traditional Astrology?


> Hi, Nick!
>
> We were discussing the vitality of astrology as a
> profession, which is one of the criteria I use to plot
> the decline of astrology, apart from philosophical
> opinions.
>
> Here are a few inscriptions from almanacs printed in
> England in the seventeenth century.  Almanacs were
> calculated by "philomaths"--people who liked to crunch
> numbers--and sold to astrologers, who used them to
> make predictions following the techniques of
> traditional astrology.  Almanacs fall into the
> category of historical evidence of the vitality of
> astrology, as their manufacture would not pay for the
> cost of printing unless they had an audience.  I guess
> somebody forgot to tell the common folk that astrology
> had lost favor with the intellectual elite, because
> the existence of almanacs showing the movements of the
> planets tell us that the common man was still keeping
> astrologers, almanac makers, and doctors and surgeons
> who used astrology in business right up until late in
> the seventeenth century.
>
> <<
>
> A Prognossicacion and an Almanack fastened together,
> declaring the Dispocission of the People and also of
> the Wether, with certain Electyons and Tymes chosen
> both for Phisike and Surgerye, and for the husbandman.
> And also for Hawekyng, Huntynq, Fishynq, and Foulynge,
> according to the Science of Astronomy, made for the
> Yeare of our Lord God M.D.L., Calculed for the
> Merydyan of Yorke, and practiced by Anthony Askham. At
> the end, 'Imprynted at London, in Flete Strete, at the
> Signe of the George, next to Saint Dunstan's Church,
> by Wyllyam Powell, cum privilegio ad imprimendum dim.'
> Then follows the Prognostication, the title-page to
> which. is as follows:
>
> A Prognossicacion for the Yere of our Lord MCCCCC.L.,
> Calculed upon the Merydyan of the Towne of Anwarpe and
> the Country thereabout, by Master Peter of Moorbeeke,
> Doctour in Physicke of the same Towne, whereunto is
> added the Judgment of M. Cornelius Schute, Doetour in
> Physicke of the Towne of Bruges in Flanders, upon and
> concerning the Disposicion, Estate, and Condicion of
> certaine Prynces, Centreys, and Regions, for the
> present Yere, gathered oute of his Prognossicacion for
> the same Yere. Translated oute of Duch into Englyshe
> by William Harrys. At the end, 'Imprynted at London by
> John Daye, dwellyne over Aldersgate, and Wyllyam
> Seres, dwellyne in Peter Colledge. These Bokes are to
> be sold at the Newe Shop by the Lytle Conduyte in
> Chepesyde.'
>
> <<
>
> 'An Almanacke and Prognosticatyon for the Yeare of our
> Lorde MDLI., practysed by Simon Henringius and
> Lodowyke Boyard, Doctors in Physike and Astronomye,
> &c. At Worcester in the Hygb. Strete.'
>
> <<
>
> 'A Newe Almanacke and Prognostication, Collected for
> the Yere of our Lord MDLVIII., wherein is expressed
> the Change and Full of the Moone, with their Quarters.
> The Varietie of the lyre, and also of the Windes
> throughout the whole Yere, with Infortunate Times to
> Bie and Sell, take Medicine, Sowe, Plant, and Journey,
> &c. Made for the Meridian of Norwich and Pole Arctic/
> e LII. Degrees, and serving for all England. By
> William Kenningham, Physician. Imprynted at London by
> John Daye, dwelling over Alders-gate.'
>
> England's most celebrated physician/astrologer,
> Richard Saunders, did not publish his noted work, _The
> Astrological Judgement and Practice of Physick_, until
> 1677.  His work is thought to be the most inclusive
> and accurate description of the use of astrology for
> medical purposes ever written; in his own practice,
> his reputation as a diagnostician was the highest.
>
> The problem with assuming that de la Mirandola's
> philosophical broadside effectively stopped
> traditional astrology in its tracks was that in 1500,
> for its many practical uses and purposes, there was
> little in place to supplant traditional astrology.
>
> It would be more than two centuries before that
> changed.
>
> Warmly,
>
> Pam
>
>
> --- Pamela Richards <spirlhelix@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > Hi, Nick!
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > "your claim that some modern authors appropriated
> > Ficonio's work as a kind of retrospective apoligia
> > for
> > Jung is an interesting one-is there one particular
> > writer who seems to be responsible for this?"
> >
> > I can tell you my own idea of how this might have
> > happened.  It's from the perspective of someone who
> > mostly reads the sources, not the interpreters of
> > the
> > sources.  Since I have not really read the modern
> > interpreters of history on this point, I don't
> > really
> > know who said what, when.  I know that it is
> > possible
> > for such leaps of imagination to be made by those
> > who
> > confine themselves to "philosophical" limits to
> > their
> > approach to the history of astrology.
> >
> > I feel it may be the latter-day overly literal
> > interpretation of Jung's own words which is largely
> > responsible for this misunderstanding.  Jung
> > referred
> > to Ficino as his "patron", in other words,
> > acknowledged his debt to Ficino.  As so often
> > happens
> > with ardent followers of a great man, I believe this
> > was probably taken with a Fundamentalist literalism
> > by
> > followers of Jung who began to revere Ficino as some
> > sort of "founder of modern astrology" without
> > knowing
> > the intention, emphasis, techniques, or traditions
> > of
> > modern versus traditional astrology.  If these
> > literal-minded interpreters looked more broadly at
> > Jung's entire work and the practice of modern
> > astrology, they would see that Jung equally admitted
> > a
> > debt to Plato, and that the "archetypes" Jung
> > derived
> > from Platonian philosophy are probably more
> > fundamental to the practice "modern psychological
> > astrology" than are any of Ficino's non-platonian
> > contributions, whatever those are thought to be.
> > The
> > fact that Plato precedes Ficino by seven hundred-odd
> > years, that Jung acknowledged a vast indebtedness to
> > Plato, and that the thrust of Ficino's work was to
> > present Plato to a new audience does nothing to
> > substantiate the claim that Ficino "invented modern
> > astrology".
> >
> > Which is not to say that I think Plato actually
> > "invented modern astrology", either.  Clearly, Jung
> > did, in great part by severing the philosophy of
> > Ficino and Plato from the previous expression they
> > had
> > taken in the form of the traditions, techniques, and
> > intentions of traditional astrology.
> >
> > Jung may not have deliberately severed modern
> > astrology from its historical roots, but by the time
> > he published, traditional astrology was cold in the
> > grave, and his philosophically-oriented efforts
> > would
> > do nothing to revive it.  In addition, since the
> > intention in exploring astrology as a psychological
> > tool is necessarily not predictive, but therapeutic,
> >
> > there was no point in reviving a lost art to gain
> > skills that were not in demand for Jung's purpose.
> >
> > Hope this is useful!
> >
> > Warmly,
> >
> > Pam
> >
> >
> > --- Nick Pelling <nickpelling@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Pamela,
> > >
> > > FWIW, the argument running through the literature
> > > I've been relying on is
> > > that by 1490, the leading group of Florentine
> > > intellectuals lost faith with
> > > astrology - that was the year that Giovanni Pico
> > > della Mirandola's
> > > announced that he intended to fire a theoretical
> > > broadside against
> > > astrology in defence of Christianity (extracts of
> > > this finally appeared in
> > > 1495, the year after his death), and that salvo is
> > > thought by some to have
> > > been the central impetus for Ficino (della
> > > Mirandolla's former teacher!) to
> > > change his approach. Wikipedia has a nice (though
> > > short) article on him:-
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Pico_della_Mirandola
> > >
> > > Also, here's a link to an online article
> > summarising
> > > this general tradition
> > > that I've posted to the list before, which also
> > > quote Francis Bacon's views
> > > on astrology (essentially, that it doesn't work
> > for
> > > individuals, but its
> > > effects on populations or nations ~might~ be worth
> > > studying) - Paula
> > > Wagner's (2000) "The Decline of Astrology" [with
> > > Nick Campion as advisor]:-
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.kepler.edu/articles/student/2q2000wagner.html
> > >
> > > Reading it back again, it does seem that the
> > > filaments claimed to connect
> > > Ficinian thought forward to present-day astrology
> > > are indeed somewhat
> > > lacking in substance: this aspect does support
> > your
> > > assertion that there
> > > was no break in the (already declining) tradition
> > at
> > > that time. Your claim
> > > that some modern authors appropriated Ficino's
> > work
> > > as a kind of
> > > retrospective apologia for Jung is a very
> > > interesting one - is there one
> > > particular writer who seems to be mainly
> > responsible
> > > for this?
> > >
> > > And yet... medieval astrology had always enjoyed
> > > protection because of its
> > > status as a subject taught within universities
> > > (because of its centrality
> > > to medicine) even though universities were
> > typically
> > > administered by the
> > > Church, but [so the argument runs] its
> > intellectual
> > > aegis was withdrawn
> > > circa 1500, and so astrology ended up with few
> > > active proponents. While its
> > > decline had clearly already begun, was 1480-1520
> > the
> > > "tipping point" where
> > > its boat sank? I used to think that argument was
> > an
> > > open-and-shut case, but
> > > now I'm not so sure...
> > >
> > > BTW, here's a nice page on medieval universities,
> > > science, and astrology
> > > (it discusses Cecco d'Ascoli's career clearly, for
> > > example):-
> > > http://www.bede.org.uk/university.htm
> > >
> > > Cheers, .....Nick Pelling.....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > with a body saying:
> > > unsubscribe vms-list
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing, than to
> > teach ten thousand stars how not to dance."
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > with a body saying:
> > unsubscribe vms-list
> >
>
>
> =====
> "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing, than to teach ten thousand
stars how not to dance."
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
> unsubscribe vms-list

______________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxx with a body saying:
unsubscribe vms-list