Re: VMs: Jung and Modern/Traditional Astrology?

["GC" <gc-@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Pamela wrote:


> Thanks!  I always love to learn. . . shh, we are not
> allowed to talk about this.  It's not peritient, per
> Rene.

That's quite okay.  I've been on the receiving end for quite some time, so
long in fact that I'm become quite comfortable as an "outsider".  Not
usually with Rene however, a person I hold in the highest esteem.  We have
our disagreements, but those are usually not on substance, rather on
presentation.  I understand why Rene felt the conversation was going
off-topic, and I have no problem with his attempts at redirection.  My
advice to you is that, if you are truly interested in the Voynich, you
peruse Rene's site, and attempt to comprehend the vast amount of information
he has compiled on the subject.  I've never met the man, but one day soon I
hope to shake his hand and compliment him on the focus he's been able to
maintain in his study.  (has anybody noticed that the first and second
definitions of the word "peruse" as displayed in Mirriam Webster are
entirely contradictory?)

I'm certainly no modern astrologer, nor do I really have an interest in the
subject beyond the Voynich and the 15th/16th century works that I currently
study.  I am keen on the writers of the time because this is my interest and
I attempt to "think" in their terms when examining a time period.  I believe
this is the only path to understanding, and I've discovered this path to be
the correct one more than a few times.

You've invited me to address an off-list message on the list, and since this
is the most efficient method to demonstrate that your track is not so
different from the track that must be investigated, I'll take this option at
the moment, as long as you understand that I will *always* respond off-list
to anything you think should be held confidential.

You stated to me:

It has been interesting trying to wade through some
perceptions of astrology as emerging into a "modern"
phase in 1500. . . but as we know, if we trust Andrew
Watson's dates, it really does not make much sense to
toss any material out due to a post-1500 date,
authored by Ficino or who else.  I suppose I could
have argued that point, but I was rather intrigued
with where these (strange, to me) ideas might have
come from, and the gaps in knowledge of the history of
astrology of which they seemed to give a glimpse.

I think you really have to look at the '1500' date (really '1492') and
understand its effect on the intellectual world at the moment as it relates
to astronomy, not astrology, a then predictive "science" that was calculated
precisely based on astronomical observations.  This single event proved
Ptolemy wrong, and brought authors such as Iohannes de Sacro Bosco to the
forefront.  This is evidenced by publications of works, (something you
connect with 'demand') with a fall-off on the publications of ptolemaic
writings and a 1,000 fold increase in the publications of works by Sacro
Bosco during the late 15th/early 16th century.  We know that 'establishment'
is slow to react to change, but we also know that from this period that
students were more interested in Sacro Bosco than anything published on
Ptolemy, even though they often towed the public line.  Private notebooks
give us some insight into the undercurrents of the medical society at the
time, telling us that the Catholic official line went unaccepted throughout
Europe, while authors like Sacro Bosco that advocated such ideas as 'round
earth' and 'helio-centricity' were gobbled up by students throughout Europe.
Up to 1492, Sacro Bosco was a minor work in astronomy, radical and without
merit beyond the mathematical, and few if any used his calculations in their
determination of astrological events.

The leap to 'modern astrology' is correctly dated at 1500, give or take a
few years.  The singular event was 1492, repeated in 1493.  The earth
immediately transformed from a 'flatland' to a globe, and the church refused
to conform to the new information.  Astronomer/astrologers were left with
two choices, conform to the church or search for the truth.  That conflict
would consume the next 150 years, and at the end of the conflict, astrology
would be thrown out as a 'pseudo-science', never again to be considered by
any studied individual.

I can get very detailed on this topic, but that would have to be off-line,
as it is not immediately relevant to the Voynich.  What is relevant to the
Voynich is that the astronomical/astrological information portrayed in the
VMS clearly reflects this transitional period, and must therefore be
post-1492.  I see some talk of 'Regulus', but who has considered
'Charleswane', or like representations?

GC

 Original Message ----- 
From: "Pamela Richards" <spirlhelix@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: VMs: Jung and Modern/Traditional Astrology?


> Hi, Glenn!
>
>
> Warmly,
>
> Pam
>
> PS I agree with you about the time frames of the dying
> gasps of astrology.  And I do think 1500 is a little
> early.
>
> Shhh!
>
> Pam
>
> --- GC <gc-@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > Pamela,
> >
> > Hi, we haven't spoken before, but I do need to clear
> > up a couple of points
> > you made.
> >
> > > Here are a few inscriptions from almanacs printed
> > in
> > > England in the seventeenth century.  Almanacs were
> > > calculated by "philomaths"--people who liked to
> > crunch
> > > numbers--and sold to astrologers, who used them to
> > > make predictions following the techniques of
> > > traditional astrology.  Almanacs fall into the
> > > category of historical evidence of the vitality of
> > > astrology, as their manufacture would not pay for
> > the
> > > cost of printing unless they had an audience.
> >
> > The books you listed are 16th century publications,
> > not 17th century.  As
> > apparent by the titles of the authors themselves
> > (doctors in physike), these
> > were not drawn up by "philomaths", but by the
> > doctors themselves.  I have
> > copies of all the publications you have listed, as
> > well as several others
> > from this time period, and if they are viewed in
> > their proper context, a
> > pattern of publication emerges that clearly
> > demonstrates their purpose.
> >
> > The almanacs themselves contain little or no
> > astrological material.  They
> > contain saints days, moon cycles, weather
> > predictions and predictions on
> > cycles of pestilence, drawn from the knowledge that
> > warm and damp weather is
> > associated with the spread of certain diseases, and
> > wrongly attributed to
> > the motions of the moon and the zodiac.  Doctor
> > Ascham offers the doubting
> > opinion in one of his connected works that these
> > attributions are made only
> > because no one has yet offered a better explanation.
> >
> > When I referred to "pattern of publication", I meant
> > that each book has
> > references to other books from the same publisher,
> > and are meant to be
> > purchased as a set.  These sets usually include an
> > almanac, an herbal, and
> > sometimes books on urine and phlebotomy, books on
> > the healing powers of
> > stones, etc.  The almanacs themselves were usually a
> > single large page
> > folded twice to form a foldout of 8 pages, and were
> > published annually,
> > while the peripheral books were reissued only
> > periodically when the supply
> > ran out.  The purpose of these books was clearly
> > medical, and apart from
> > very promising titles, the information contained had
> > almost everything to do
> > with the diagnosis and treatment of disease.  The
> > first publication of a set
> > of books like this was by Richard Banckes in 1525.
> >
> > In each case in 16th century England, publications
> > on astronomy/astrology
> > are connected to medicine exclusively, and it is not
> > until toward the middle
> > of the 17th century that books begin to appear on
> > the "predictive power" of
> > astrology as a stand-alone "science".  By this time
> > a battle of words over
> > the efficacy of astrology was well underway, and
> > astrology was losing ground
> > to reason, especially when connected to medicine and
> > the ability to predict
> > the weather and cataclysmic events.
> >
> > Hope this is useful.
> >
> > GC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Pamela Richards" <spirlhelix@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 9:22 AM
> > Subject: Re: VMs: Jung and Modern/Traditional
> > Astrology?
> >
> >
> > > Hi, Nick!
> > >
> > > We were discussing the vitality of astrology as a
> > > profession, which is one of the criteria I use to
> > plot
> > > the decline of astrology, apart from philosophical
> > > opinions.
> > >
> > > Here are a few inscriptions from almanacs printed
> > in
> > > England in the seventeenth century.  Almanacs were
> > > calculated by "philomaths"--people who liked to
> > crunch
> > > numbers--and sold to astrologers, who used them to
> > > make predictions following the techniques of
> > > traditional astrology.  Almanacs fall into the
> > > category of historical evidence of the vitality of
> > > astrology, as their manufacture would not pay for
> > the
> > > cost of printing unless they had an audience.  I
> > guess
> > > somebody forgot to tell the common folk that
> > astrology
> > > had lost favor with the intellectual elite,
> > because
> > > the existence of almanacs showing the movements of
> > the
> > > planets tell us that the common man was still
> > keeping
> > > astrologers, almanac makers, and doctors and
> > surgeons
> > > who used astrology in business right up until late
> > in
> > > the seventeenth century.
> > >
> > > <<
> > >
> > > A Prognossicacion and an Almanack fastened
> > together,
> > > declaring the Dispocission of the People and also
> > of
> > > the Wether, with certain Electyons and Tymes
> > chosen
> > > both for Phisike and Surgerye, and for the
> > husbandman.
> > > And also for Hawekyng, Huntynq, Fishynq, and
> > Foulynge,
> > > according to the Science of Astronomy, made for
> > the
> > > Yeare of our Lord God M.D.L., Calculed for the
> > > Merydyan of Yorke, and practiced by Anthony
> > Askham. At
> > > the end, 'Imprynted at London, in Flete Strete, at
> > the
> > > Signe of the George, next to Saint Dunstan's
> > Church,
> > > by Wyllyam Powell, cum privilegio ad imprimendum
> > dim.'
> > > Then follows the Prognostication, the title-page
> > to
> > > which. is as follows:
> > >
> > > A Prognossicacion for the Yere of our Lord
> > MCCCCC.L.,
> > > Calculed upon the Merydyan of the Towne of Anwarpe
> > and
> > > the Country thereabout, by Master Peter of
> > Moorbeeke,
> > > Doctour in Physicke of the same Towne, whereunto
> > is
> > > added the Judgment of M. Cornelius Schute, Doetour
> > in
> > > Physicke of the Towne of Bruges in Flanders, upon
> > and
> > > concerning the Disposicion, Estate, and Condicion
> > of
> > > certaine Prynces, Centreys, and Regions, for the
> > > present Yere, gathered oute of his Prognossicacion
> > for
> > > the same Yere. Translated oute of Duch into
> > Englyshe
> > > by William Harrys. At the end, 'Imprynted at
> > London by
> > > John Daye, dwellyne over Aldersgate, and Wyllyam
> > > Seres, dwellyne in Peter Colledge. These Bokes are
> > to
> > > be sold at the Newe Shop by the Lytle Conduyte in
> > > Chepesyde.'
> > >
> > > <<
> > >
> > > 'An Almanacke and Prognosticatyon for the Yeare of
> > our
> > > Lorde MDLI., practysed by Simon Henringius and
> > > Lodowyke Boyard, Doctors in Physike and
> > Astronomye,
> > > &c. At Worcester in the Hygb. Strete.'
> > >
> > > <<
> > >
> > > 'A Newe Almanacke and Prognostication, Collected
> > for
> > > the Yere of our Lord MDLVIII., wherein is
> > expressed
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> =====
> "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing, than to teach ten thousand
stars how not to dance."
>
>
>
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