Re: VMs: Re: Traditional Astrology and the Flat Earth

[Pamela Richards <spirlhelix@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi, Glenn

* * * * * 

For those who are wary of astrological discussions:

This email contains references to Dr. John Dee's
knowledge of planting by the Moon.  The twenty-four
divided circle illustrated in the VMs may be a
reference to the phases of the Moon.  

* * * * * 

> So where are you coming from, bringing
> up farmers?  How far are we travelling back in time?

The reason I brought up farmers was because you had
stated that doctors (and only doctors, as I seem to
recall) used astrology.  Perhaps you meant that only
doctors were able to support themselves by astrology,
but I initially took your statement to mean that you
believed no one but doctors used astrology in
practical application.  

I believe astrology was used by those in occupations
other than medical; one such an occupation would be
farming.

So it appears it has come down to clarifying our
definitions of astrology.  I'm content with
Mirriam-Webster, and although I am willing to hear our
your definition, this is consistent with my
understanding and is the one I will be using.

Astrology, according to Mirriam-Webster:

Main Entry: as·trol·o·gy 
Pronunciation: &-'strä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English astrologie, from Middle
French, from Latin astrologia, from Greek, from astr-
+ -logia -logy
1 archaic : ASTRONOMY
2 : the divination of the supposed influences of the
stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial
events by their positions and aspects
- as·tro·log·i·cal  /"as-tr&-'lä-ji-k&l/ adjective
- as·tro·log·i·cal·ly  /-k(&-)lE/ adverb   

The astrology conventionally used in the West includes
fixed stars and wandering stars:  we know the
wandering stars as planets and luminaries.

Also please note, as we are prone to forget, that the
terms "astrology" and "astronomy" in their archaic use
were indistinguishable.

> The use of stars or other heavenly bodies to predict
> times to plant or sow
> is not a use of astrology, but astronomy.  The
> "waxing and waning" of the
> moon as you describe, are correctly astronomical
> observations, not
> astrological.  

I believe they are both, depending upon their
application.  It might be argued that "we know the
scientific reasons for planting with the waxing or
waning moon", and therefore these practices belong to
astronomy rather than astrology by right.  I disagree,
however, since we are attempting to explore the
beliefs of late Medieval or early Renaissance. 
Whatever the currently-known scientific effects of
planting by the Moon, medieval farmers planted
according to their belief in the Moon's ability to
influence human affairs and terrestrial events.  

The Moon is a luminary, therefore is counted in
astrology as a wandering star.  Why is her
relationship to other stars (the Sun, which causes the
phases of the Moon) to be discounted as an
astrological phenomena?

How do farmers plant by the Moon?   They use the
phases of the Moon (aspects between stars) to divine
or predict the results of their efforts (a good root
crop, or a good leaf crop); therefore, by the
definition above, they are using astrology.  

Why do farmers plant by the Moon?  For one reason,
because they know that it works.  I'm not sure exactly
why you think planting by the Moon is not using
astrology.  But to say that if a practice works, it
therefore cannot be astrology is logic based on rather
narrow thinking, and, if I may say so, such logic
demonstrates a bias and is therefore flawed and
unscientific.


> Farmer's almanacs were directed
> toward these cycles because
> of their familiarity to farmers, but no observation
> in these publications
> qualifies as an astrological observation.  

According to the definition above, if the information
in the almanacs described the aspects between the Sun
and Moon, and this information was used to divine the
future results of planting at this time, the farmers
who used this information were applying astrology.  

The Cambridge University Library contains among its
volumes commentaries by Dr. John Dee on Ptolemy's work
on astrological agriculture: _Opus Quadripartitum_. 
It is interesting that Dee not only owned this work
(we know he had the largest library in England at the
time): we can be quite sure he read it and valued it,
as he expended the time and effort to write
commentaries on it.

Warmly,

Pam  






=====
"I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing, than to teach ten thousand stars how not to dance."


		
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