Re: VMs: Re: VMs: Old Türcic runes, could they be the source of VMS-gallows?

[mesinik@xxxxxx]

So, the "mainstream" Turkish language is probably not the case. This is surely
something, maybe not very surprising. Could somebody make some opinions about
countless Tataric dialects? The so-called "Turkish runes" have been used on huge
territories from Hungary (there was the home of Attila, was it?) to almost the
Pacific...


Quoting Koontz John E <John.Koontz@xxxxxxxxxxxx>:

> On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 mesinik@xxxxxx wrote:
> > Amazing, these are available online:
> > http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/31Alphabet/KyzlasovIL%20En.htm
> > http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/31Alphabet/BaichorovTable72En.htm
> >
> > First, we see, this writing system is a democratic one. The shape of
> > glyphs is changing a lot.
> 
> This happens with the Latin alphabet and its source scripts and congenors,
> when there are no standardizing institutions and/or the examples are drawn
> from a large enough range of times and places.
> 
> > Let us take the first link of these 2, there we have a big table. On
> > line 2 we find "ic,ci" of a kind. This is one candidate IMO. Scroll down
> > to line 41, there are "k". Here another one. Btw, from somewhere I know,
> > this shape of "k" could be used only in the words beginning. At line 58
> > we see "oq,uq". Could this be one more? What about lines 60 "ö,ü" and 70
> > "üq,qü"? This list is not closed, especially because this table is
> > probably not complete.
> 
> I am not really a Turkologist, but my understanding is that the variant
> velar notations arise from the influence of the vowels.  Recall that
> Turkic languages have vowel harmony, and all the vowels in a word have to
> have the same frontness or backness and if high in roundness.
> 
> At the same time, in all languages velars tend to be pronounced with the
> tongue contacting the roof and back of the mouth at different places,
> depending on the degree of frontness or backness of adjacent vowels.
> Near an i or e (high and middle front vowels), the middle of the tongue
> tends to contact the back of the hard palate (palatal region).  Near a (a
> low back vowel) the back of the tongue tends to contact the soft palate or
> the back of the throat (uvular region).  These different k sounds have
> rather different qualities.  A non-phonemic spelling system might use
> different letters for the two kinds of k, even if they don't contrast.
> 
> In this particular case it also looks like rounded vowels (u and o in the
> back, or u-unlaut and o-umlaut in the front) lead to different k-sounds,
> probably because the k near a rounded vowel is labialized, with the lips
> rounded before or after the vowel begins, due to assimilation to the
> vowel.  It looks like these special symbols for rounded k's serve as VC ~
> CV symbols, with the vowel understood as included.  In effect, the
> different k's mark indicate different vowels, to the extent that the
> vowels can be omitted graphically.
> 
> Another factor here is that the Turkic scripts appear to develop from
> K(h)arosthi, an early form of Indian writing.  Kharosthi is an abugida,
> like the later Indic systems, in which consonants include a default vowel
> a.
> 
> The development of alternate k-symbols in Turkic orthographies is enhanced
> by contact with Arabic, in which q - emphatic k - does contrast with k,
> and has the effect in most dialects of making the adjacent vowel sound
> further back in the mouth.  Vowels in a qword don't have to agree, but
> vowels agree with their neighboring consonants.
> 
> Notice that in Turkic the vowels modify the consonants, whereas in Arabic
> the consonants modify the vowels.  Both patterns occur elsewhere, e.g., in
> Eskimo vowels near q are lower and backer than vowels near k, while in
> Pacific Northwest languages it appears that different vowel sets have led
> to multiple velar (and other) sets.  Palatalization in Irish and Slavic is
> more or less the same thing, too - vowel qualities migrating into
> consonants.
> 
> Some might argue that to a large extent the question of whether the vowels
> or consonants are primary bearers of the relevant features is moot.  It
> does make a difference in auditory affect, though, asnd whether or not it
> is associated with vowel or "feature" harmony of some sort is also
> relevant.
> 
> By borrowing words from Arabic and Indo-Iranian in which backed k or q
> occurs with adjacent backed vowels in ways that violate Turkish vowel
> harmony, some Turkish languages develop actual contrasts of k vs. q.  I
> don't think that the labialized k ever becomes fully contrastive by some
> analogous process.
> 
> In any event, the plethora of k-sounds in early Turkic schemes is somewhat
> secondary.  Later on it is sometimes real.
> 
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