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Re: VMs: Link between Phaistos Disk & VMs...!?

on 7/20/05 7:21 AM, Elmar Vogt at elvogt@xxxxxxx wrote:

>> --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
>> Von: Wayne Durden <wdurden@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> .. Thanks
>> for the input Elmar, but I have considered this factor and personally find
>> it not ruled out, but rather somewhat supportive as well as the crossbow
>> depicted.
> I don't really get it. You have no positive indication that the Dacians wore
> costume as depicted, while the clothes nicely match Central Europe 15th
> century -- and you still think this *supports* your case?
> I've got to ask you the killer question -- What *would* be proof against the
> Dacian thesis, in your view?
> Cheers,
> Elmar

I am sorry to have invoked such strong emotion Elmar, but let me address
your points...

"You have no positive indication that the Dacians wore costume as

The assertion that the clothes nicely match Central Europe 15th century is
kind of a gross generalization.  I looked carefully at the issue and while I
see similarities, I also see similarities to the outfits of the Dacians on
Trajan's column or to the descriptions of their costume and habits described
by the ancient historians.  I guess since we have no Dacian photographs and
it is the generally accepted view that this generic outfit is definitively
"Central" European 15th century I am just out of luck, no?  By the way,
which "Central Europe 15th Century" is this from?  Germany, Romania,
Bulgaria, Turkey, France?  The hat may well be a derivation of the peculiar
felt hat described by some.  The state of dress or undress in the VMS
doesn't exactly pose the definitive clue your email implies...

As to your killer question  "What *would* be proof against the Dacian
thesis...  I am not as wed to the theory as you imply.  Scientific dating of
the parchment or pigments would do the trick, although I do not know the
state of the art, and whether this is possibly.  As to the contributions
which someone on this list might make,  well obviously a symbol of known
origin of a later date would of course do the trick as well as any evidence
of names at a later date, identification of building/building style of a
known later date... (and yes I am aware of the crenallation style issue, and
yes, I did my own digging on that issue and would suggest that the
distinctions recently raised are not necessarily modern, see, i.e. Trajan's
column again, etc.)  Of course if the dress could be tied to a specific
costume invention historically recorded, that would do the trick as well.
Fashion has been varied and fickle, capable and subject to large geographic
invention, reinvention, etc.  It is also subject to the common archaelogical
error of gross generalization based on tiny sample size.  Let's just say,
your Central European provenance of the 15th Century is just a tad too
ambivalent to be the one piece that causes me to immediately dismiss
overnight an interesting hypothesis that we have been chasing for months
that ties up some other issues conveniently.  In all probability the
hypothesis is "bunk", but the zodiac outfit isn't the item to cause me to
say so.

Sorry to have raised such skepticism with perhaps too glib an initial post
on the issue.  I suspect a presentation on the list of herbs which are cross
identified Greek-Latin-Dacian may be more compelling.  I will sit tight
again until it is in compelling format.  I am sorry the recent posts and
then Nick's Phaistos disk remark spurred me to sully the list.  Have been
steadily working on the issue for quite some time, and will continue to do
so I guess quietly in the background.  For those that might have interest,
here is a snippet of the history of Jordanes regarding the introduction of
philosophical wisdom to the Dacians:

XI (67) Then when Buruista was king of the Goths, Dicineus came to Gothia at
the time when Sulla ruled the Romans. Buruista received Dicineus and gave
him almost royal power. It was by his advice the Goths ravaged the lands of
the Germans, which the Franks now possess. (68) Then came Caesar, the first
of all the Romans to assume imperial power and to subdue almost the whole
world, who conquered all kingdoms and even seized islands lying beyond our
world, reposing in the bosom of Ocean. He made tributary to the Romans those
that knew not the Roman name even by hearsay, and yet was unable to prevail
against the Goths, despite his frequent attempts. Soon Gaius Tiberius
reigned as third emperor of the Romans, and yet the Goths continued in their
kingdom unharmed. (69) Their safety, their advantage, their one hope lay in
this, that whatever their counsellor Dicineus advised should by all means be
done; and they judged it expedient that they should labor for its
accomplishment. And when he saw that their minds were obedient to him in all
things and that they had natural ability, he taught them almost the whole of
philosophy, for he was a skilled master of this subject. Thus by teaching
them ethics he restrained their barbarous customs; by imparting a knowledge
of physics he made them live naturally under laws of their own, which they
possess in written form to this day and call belagines. He taught them logic
and made them skilled in reasoning beyond all other races; he showed them
practical knowledge and so persuaded them to abound in good works. By
demonstrating theoretical knowledge he urged them to contemplate the twelve
signs and the courses of the planets passing through them, and the whole of
astronomy. He told them how the disc of the moon gains increase or suffers
loss, and showed them how much the fiery globe of the sun exceeds in size
our earthly planet. He explained the names of the three hundred and
forty-six stars and told through what signs in the arching vault of the
heavens they glide swiftly from their rising to their setting. (70) Think, I
pray you, what pleasure it was for these brave men, when for a little space
they had leisure from warfare, to be instructed in the teachings of
philosophy! You might have seen one scanning the position of the heavens and
another investigating the nature of plants and bushes. Here stood one who
studied the waxing and waning of the moon, while still another regarded the
labors of the sun and observed how those bodies which were hastening to go
toward the east are whirled around and borne back to the west by the
rotation of the heavens. When they had learned the reason, they were at
rest. (71) These and various other matters Dicineus taught the Goths in his
wisdom and gained marvellous repute among them, so that he ruled not only
the common men but their kings. He chose from among them those that were at
that time of noblest birth and superior wisdom and taught them theology,
bidding them worship certain divinities and holy places. He gave the name of
Pilleati to the priests he ordained, I suppose because they offered
sacrifice having their heads covered with tiaras, which we otherwise call
pillei. (72) But he bade them call the rest of their race Capillati. This
name the Goths accepted and prized highly, and they retain it to this day in
their songs.

Cheers Elmar, again sorry to have invoked such cynicism so early in the day.
I hope the day grows better for you  as it passes into afternoon and

Happy research,


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