RE: VMs: Link between Phaistos Disk & VMs...!?

["John Grove" <John@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

	Thanks for the response Wayne,

		You've obviously been doing a lot of digging and have come up with
evidence that convinces you that one could look more closely at the age of
the VMS. On the other hand, I find that the images you provided show some
triangular battlements but those are definitely not dovetail in
construction. They lack the spacing and verticle sides that the ghibelline
and VMS castle and walls have. I would still vote on a 13th to 15th century
time period based on those battlements alone, but like anything else in this
puzzle - it's certainly open to everyone's own perception. Good luck with
your efforts in the earlier time periods.

	John.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Wayne Durden
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 9:25 PM
To: vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: VMs: Link between Phaistos Disk & VMs...!?


on 7/20/05 6:24 PM, John Grove at John@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
umn again, etc.)
>
> Are you saying you've got ghibelline-styled battlements pre-dating the
13th
> century?
>
> John.
>

John, I looked into the guelph/ghibelline dispute and the distinction in
battlements alledgedly arising from this dispute, and then went fact
checking on my own.    What I found were far older historical examples of
both shapes such that I could not conclude personally that a swallow tail
shape necessarily limited the issue to 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th Century nor
would the appearance of a swallow tail preclude pre-zero A.D. battlements.

For instance, I found V-shaped crenallations on Assyrian battlements at
Assurnasirpal 883-859 B.C. on the bas relief of Nimrud.  I found swallows
elsewhere in sicily and I believe at Bonarto predating the guelph/guibelline
dispute, and after several examples of a variety of shapes concluded once
again that despite the highly publicized guelph/ghibelline dispute and the
architectural consequences thereof, the basic shapes (especially when
interpreted against the actual VMS drawings) could have occurred across a
vaster sweep of history than the 15th century.  I found remarkable variation
in Roman battlements throughout the empire and across time periods, and
personally concluded that the guelph/ghibelline battlement distinction was
overrated as a precision dating tool.  Like people of any age, remarkably
mundane facts likely caused variation in styles which we shouldn't be so
quick to say definitively places a work in a certain period.  I think the
variation in the shape of the battlements here was not of such technological
significance that it was beyond the ken of people of any age that built
stone fortresses.  The VMS depictions do not show to me a level of artistry
such that we can conclude any finish detail or florishes that would
conclusively narrow the range.   Of course I may very well be mistaken,
indeed am likely mistaken, but my point is only that I am not yet convinced
enough to abandon the hypothesis of Dicinean wisdom book yet.

Here is a link to bas relief images re: Nimrud  with V-shaped battlements
for instance:

http://intranet.dalton.org/ms/6th/archaeotype_library/batteringx.html

Please note that I am not saying the construction style otherwise resembles
the VMS buildings, only that it serves as one counterexample that certain
shapes in battlements can be so easily placed historically definitively.  I
believe from my own review, I was most impressed with Sicicilian images
bearing gross semblance although those which I found most similar didn't
have a round tower.  Unfortunately we have only foundations and mounds for
the Dacian ruins so far.  I would note also, that but for these bas reliefs,
the mounds in Assyria now left offer no idea of the finished architecture of
the Assyrians, anymore than the foundation ruins of the Dacian cities and
fortresses in the Orastrie mountains offer us now..  We do have the
depictions on the column of Trajan but again the aritistic license is never
known.  The depiction of the Dacians destroying one of their cities is shown
here:

http://www.stoa.org/trajan/images/hi/3.9.h.jpg

This depiction shows multistory buildings within the fortress walls and at
least one round tower, and at least the wall at the front appears to have
crenellated battlements although they are square.  I would not call them
guelph because of course of the time period at which the Trajan column was
constructed;)

I only concluded from my independent fact checking that earlier swallow
tails were certainly within the realm of possibilities and not to rely too
much on swallow tail crenallations as a precision dating tool, if in fact
the VMS drawings depict such.

At present, the trail being followed here is that we have a written
description by Jordanes of Dacian writings (the belagines) still in
existence at the time of his history containing remarkably the range of
subject matters physics (medicine), zodiac, 346 star names, plant
investigation, that seemed to  align with matter which appears depicted in
the VMS.  We know there was a Dacian language (Ovid learned it and composed
a lost poem in it during his exile to Tomis even) and a Dacian writing
system, but by all accounts if is virtually entirely lost but for the names
of a few people, place 'nyms, and a list of 20 some herbs.   We have
generally accepted assumptions based on dress, architecture, handwriting
that give a European locale, but which have yielded no headway into the
writing itself....  If the document isn't code or nonsense, then the
candidates for known lost European languages are pretty slim.  So naturally,
the question is whether dress, architecture, implements etc. would
absolutely preclude a much earlier date, and if not, what assumptions have
we make about the writing alphabet and sounds depicted which might should be
adjusted or which might yield headway adjusted.

The Dacian herb list then perhaps gives the most solid issue to follow up,
although the star names  or zodiac features Dicineus taught might yield a
break if looked out in the context of being 1000 to 1500 years earlier than
most on the list are currently thinking, and what those sources of
information to Dicineus would have been ....

Wayne



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