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VMs: RE: Folio 39r

Thanks John,

I've felt for some time that many of us are on the same track,
only divided by the inability to express precisely our views in a
common fashion.  This is one of those cases where 'a picture is
worth a thousand words', so to speak.

I'll work harder to get my transcription and glyphset to a release
point, as I know that we're going to have some very fascinating
discussions and some very valuable insights come to light.

It stands out that EVA serves a very good purpose in text based
e-mail for describing what we see, just as it stands out that some
of us missed your previous argument because we didn't know the
language well enough for it to draw a picture in our minds.  This
whole book is about images and imaging to some degree, always
about 'appearance' rather than substance.

I'm going to have some private discussion with Nick about better
means of presentation and direct  input facilitation, as this
should be (and always was) a group effort.  I for one would love
to see your take on this problem in image form, and to that end I
will finalize and make available a pre-release copy of the public
domain a-voynich font.  I chose this nomen because it may go
through some changes, which can be labeled b-voynich, etc., up to
a final release with the vgbt name.

The EVA font is extremely useful in the questioning of a glyph,
since it has the ability to mix and match glyph components.  As
long as Gabriel and Rene don't mind, you can type your version of
a glyph in EVA, cut and paste it into an image editor, and present
it on a web page as an image, bypassing the restrictions of text
based e-mail and my own chosen method of encoding.  Somewhere
along the line we need to determine within a degree of
mathematical certainty the unit of transmission.  Only when this
is established can the real work begin.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-voynich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:owner-voynich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of John Grove
> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:29 PM
> To: Voynich Ms. mailing list
> Subject: VMs: RE: Folio 39r
> Nice work indeed...
> I particularly like the red lettering on line 10 as a perfect
> example of glyphs formed by strokes. The stroke orders I've
> combined in the past are indeed the same that you are using (for
> the most part) to build your glyphs... Which is what I tried
> to explain (rather poorly) in the past... Each letter
> (I called it)
> was formed by a collection of strokes c+c+c+b for example. And I
> explained that this would help us make some of the
> wierdo characters
> as well -- by having two finishing strokes in place of
> the standard
> 'normal' one ending. The red item on line 10 is a
> perfect display of
> this charachteristic...
> You have what is a 'c' character, followed by the 'h'
> extension, the
> 's' ligature and the 'y' ligature. All combined to form
> one character.
> John Grove.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-voynich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:owner-voynich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of GC
> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 3:46 AM
> To: Voynich Ms. mailing list
> Subject: VMs: Re: Folio 39r
> Dana Wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-voynich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:owner-voynich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of DANA SCOTT
> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 11:48 PM
> To: Voynich Ms. mailing list
> Subject: VMs: Re: Folio 39r
> Hello GC,
>    Did you intend to reference both f39r and f39v here? I think
> that it would help to specify the text you are referring for a
> friendly "critical analysis". Thank you.
> Regards,
> Dana Scott
> Hi Dana,
> I apparently get my think from Foibles R-VS, as I apparently
> bought a keyboard that misspells regularly.  Folio 39r is the
> page, and I've posted a copy of the transcription at
> http://voynich.info/vgbt/vgbt-39r.jpg with some pointers as to
> which glyphs I consider 'rare', a definition established by raw
> count.  Note that three of the four rare 'extended' gallows
> combinations ( those with an extra C at the end) are represented
> on this page, as well as 'extended' combinations of {c} and
> {stroke}/EVA <i>.  These two extended glyphs occurring
> on the same
> page is extremely rare, and the confirmation of the
> three variant
> gallows glyphs on one page is also an anomaly.
> This page has some other interesting features, but I'm certain
> there is enough here to raise a few questions.  I also point out
> folio 24v as a 'transition' page, something I think I mentioned
> earlier.  As glyphs go, the rare variants exhibited on 24v move
> into sharper focus after that page, as is the case with
> these rare
> forms on 39r.  An interesting phenomenon.
> I do not wish to offer speculation at this point on what these
> mean, rather point them out as strong and solid glyph forms, and
> one of my primary points in this transcription was to offer a
> basis for 'friendly critical analysis'.  I'm picking
> out repeated
> variants and discovering that they tend to appear in in
> predictable sets of four variants for each glyph form.  Couple
> that with specific calligraphic rules and 99% of what I see
> conforms to a a very strict set of rules that guide their
> construction.  Extend that to the 'words', (the most examined
> unit), and we see that the entire manuscript is built from the
> ground up in conformation to strict rules.  Why this is
> so is the
> question.....
> Each one of my pages has undergone two sets of readings, and a
> third reading will take place before I release a transcription
> that continues up to the zodiac pages.  Three reads to me is a
> golden number, since I tend not to change anything after that
> number.  I do not intend the gold transcription to mean
> that it is
> 'written in gold' and is unchangeable, rather that it
> is the best
> I am capable of given my images and circumstances.
> This is much more than a simple transcription effort in my mind.
> I maintain a page that covers each glyph and identifies all
> sources to my knowledge where this glyph occurs in other works,
> and as I said before, they are all one form of 'shorthand' or
> another, at least in my sourcing database.  Hopefully the
> discussion will raise questions that provide additional answers.
> My limited resources can only draw outlines, and I am sincere in
> my belief that together we can provide those outlines with a
> degree of form and substance.
> The way I've set this up is that I can provide on demand (up to
> the point I've transcribed) not only the glyph representation
> itself, but an image for each glyph, by folio, line and word.
> This database will be available in dBase and Excel formats, and
> for Microsoft Database users as well.  For MS I might choose an
> older format than I currently use, as newer systems are backward
> compatible.
> This project is a necessity to our study.  I chose 'glyph-based'
> (vgbt=Voynich Glyph Based Transcription) because:
> 1.  It suits the natural western eye identification and evokes a
> certain awareness in the western mind.
> 2.  Extensive analysis of the glyphs does not indicate a
> predominance of compound 'language' or 'shorthand'
>     structures that would suggest anything other than
> glyph-based
> orientation.
> 3.  Even obvious compound glyphs form sets too small to be
> language related.
> 4.  The extremely limited number of 'stroke sets' tends to
> preclude any stroke based reading.
>      Glyphs are written as units, and are very redundant in
> occurrence better than 99% of the time.
> 5.  Glyph variants group in sets of four, far too contrived for
> 'natural language'.
> I don't expect my transcription to be the final
> analysis, I'm not
> nearly that arrogant... rather I desire that it become the
> beginning of a new and meaningful study, and an
> extensive database
> that combines both theory and image is my opening effort.  Many
> trifles LOOK like a pizza, but the best recipes have
> been weighed
> and measured hundreds of times before they're offered to the
> public.  No sauce is complete without that pinch of
> anise, and no
> pepperoni is 'fresh' unless you've hung it in your own
> sock on the
> front porch.  This ain't no store-bought pizza, it has
> to be built
> from scratch, and even then, from fresh ingredients.
> GC