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VMs: Re: Hebrew Kabbalistic MSS in the Vatican
Hello Donald,
Well, I keep speculating that the scribe of the VMs may have had VIP access
to the Vatican library to help provide inspiration for the contents of the
VMs.
Regards,
Dana Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Goodell" <donald.goodell@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 2:05 PM
Subject: VMs: Hebrew Kabbalistic MSS in the Vatican
>
> From: "Donald Goodell" <donald.goodell@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <dscott520@xxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 1:02 PM
> Subject: Hebrew Kabbalistic MSS in the Vatican
>
>
> Hi Dana:
>
> I seem to remember the so-called Vatican Neofiti Collection, the large
> Rossi/Rossini Collection and the prestigious Urbanati Ebraici collection
> all currently in the Vatican Library which houses Hebrew, Aramaic and
> Kaballstic mediaeval MSS, (in fact over 800 MSS of Hebraica are
currently
> housed in
> the Vatican Library.)
>
> But there are a lot of Kabbalistic collections throughout Italy and
Spain,
> and also in various places throughout Europe including Oxford's
Bodeleian
> Library and of course the Cambridge collections from the Cairo Geniza
(the
> Synagogue of Ben Ezra) which Solomon Schecter brought back with him in
> 1897...
>
> Why do you ask about the Vatican Library in particular as a "first
> thought"?
>
> Take care,
> DG
> donald.goodell@xxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "DANA SCOTT" <dscott520@xxxxxxx>
> > > To: <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 9:46 AM
> > > Subject: VMs: Re: Hebrew Kabbalistic Cryptography
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hello Donald,
> > > >
> > > > My first thought here would be to ask whether or not there are any
> > > > "Aramaic/Hebrew Caballistic" manuscripts in the Vatican Library?
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Dana Scott
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Donald Goodell" <donald.goodell@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <lroux@xxxxxxx>; <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 10:03 AM
> > > > Subject: VMs: Hebrew Kabbalistic Cryptography
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Larry:
> > > > >
> > > > > You wrote in Section II of your attachment (Ancient Character
> > > Replacement)
> > > > >
> > > > > QUOTE "There have been examples of languages over time where
vowels
> > were
> > > > not
> > > > > incorporated into the written language. The Dead Sea scrolls, for
> > > > instance,
> > > > > are written in a vowel-less version of Hebrew. " UNQUOTE
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, Larry, all Hebrew and Aramaic MSS and inscriptions from
> > > > Antiquity
> > > > > both in and outside the Dead Sea corpus (like most other ancient
> > Middle
> > > > > Eastern languages such as Akkadian cuneiform etc.) were
essentially
> > > > > vowel-less systems, and written vowels were not codified prior to
> > about
> > > > > 960AD were (the time of the Massoretes when a vowel system for
> Hebrew
> > > was
> > > > > devised for purposes of "uniform" cantillation among the Ashkenazi
> > > > clerics)
> > > > > .
> > > > >
> > > > > But some consonants performed the function of "vowels"in Hebrew
> prior
> > > to
> > > > > the advent of the Massoretes (e.g. "vav" was often used for letter
> > "long
> > > > o"
> > > > > and "long u" and "yud" was often used for the letter "i" (as in
the
> > word
> > > > > "Israel") or in forming plurals (e.g. "gOyIm" where the letter
Vav
> is
> > > > used
> > > > > for the O and Yud for the letter I)etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > So one would have to say that in general Hebrew is really only
> > > "partially"
> > > > > de-vowelled, i.e. before 960AD and the Dead Sea Scrolls (writen
> > between
> > > > BC
> > > > > 290 to AD68) are just one of many examples of this scribal
practice
> in
> > > the
> > > > > ancient world (see Egyptian Heiroglyphics for example which are
> > likewise
> > > > > de-vowelled).
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, I must also insert here that the Dead Sea Scroll Corpus is
> > written
> > > > in
> > > > > several languages not just Hebrew, including: a. Paleo-Hebrew
(i.e.
> > > copies
> > > > > of the Torah etc. written out with Phoenician letters), b. a form
of
> > > early
> > > > > proto-Mishnaic "Jerusalemite" Hebrew (e.g. fragments of the
Wisdom
> of
> > > Ben
> > > > > Sirach, or fragments of I Henoch, etc..), c. Aramaic (e.g. the
> Genesis
> > > > > Apocryphon) and even d. in Greek (fragments of copies of the
> Psalms
> > > and
> > > > > the Torah have been found in Greek as well as Greek "code" words
> found
> > > in
> > > > > the Copper Scroll outlining the various locations of the contents
of
> > the
> > > > > Jerusalem Temple Treasury).
> > > > >
> > > > > More to the point with the VMS thread here, and to me a very
> > interesting
> > > > > fact which pertains to our immediate discussion is that,
curiously,
> > some
> > > > > Dead Sea Scrolls are written in Cypher-Code, i.e. in a simple
> > "cryptic"
> > > > > alphabetic replacement code, e.g. the fragments of a scroll known
as
> > the
> > > > > "Admonitions to the Sons of the Dawn" found in Cave 4 at Qumran
> (4Q298
> > > > > Cryptic) where each Aramaic letter is replaced by a totally
> different
> > > > > replacement letter-symbol.
> > > > >
> > > > > These symbols bear a curious resemblance at times to the Voynich
> > sigils,
> > > > > e.g. the system used in 4Q298 for the Aramaic letter "vav" closely
> > > > resembles
> > > > > the VMS sigil for EVA [f]; also the Cryptic 4Q298 code for the
> Aramaic
> > > > > letter "Quph" is the same as the Voynich sigil for EVA [d] (i.e.
> > > > resembling
> > > > > the modern Arabic numeral 8); the Cryptic 4Q298 coded letter for
> > Aramaic
> > > > > "tav" resembles the VMS sigil for EVA [p]: the Crytpic 4Q298
coded
> > > letter
> > > > > for Aramaic " 'ayin " is similar to the VMS sigil for EVA [c];
4Q298
> > > > Cryptic
> > > > > Aramaic letter "Kaph" is the same symbol as the VMS sigil for EVA
> [o]:
> > > > 4Q298
> > > > > Cryptic sign for Aramaic "mem" is similar to the VMS sigil for EVA
> [m}
> > > and
> > > > > finally, the EVA [q] which resembles a tall numeral "4" is similar
> to
> > > the
> > > > > 4Q298 Cryptic coded letter for Aramaic "tet".
> > > > >
> > > > > This may suggest (but only "may" suggest) that the originator of
the
> > VMS
> > > > > sigil-cypherbet might have had some contact with Aramaic/Hebrew
> > > > Caballistic
> > > > > coded cyphers used in antiquity and developed/morphed over time
> > through
> > > > the
> > > > > Middle Ages (even the Dead Sea Scroll sect re-emerged as the
> Karaites
> > > > before
> > > > > the year 1000).
> > > > >
> > > > > Discussion anyone?
> > > > >
> > > > > DG
> > > > >
> > > > > donald.goodell@xxxxxxxxx
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Larry Roux" <lroux@xxxxxxx>
> > > > > To: <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 2:29 PM
> > > > > Subject: VMs: decryption document
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I put together a document on some encryption methods and how
they
> > > > > > pertain to the Voynich. It can be found at
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://web.syr.edu/~laroux/voyencrypdoc.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While I have seen several sites that attack Voynich from a
> > particular
> > > > > > decryption method, I have not seen a more general one that shows
> > > > > > different methods and how they relate to the Voy Manuscript.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am NOT an expert in cryptology, so be kind. I am sure I am
not
> > > using
> > > > > > the official terminology, etc. And this is a work in progress.
> > Note
> > > > > > that I am doing this more for my own reference and a way to
focus
> my
> > > > > > ideas than to be the "go-to" reference (or I would be more
careful
> > to
> > > > > > learn the correct terminology, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any comments are welcome. If people really HATE it then I can
> > delete
> > > it
> > > > > > <grin>.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll be adding more info (links to the various pages, other
> schemes,
> > > > > > etc) if the page survives initial review....
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ******************************
> > > > > > Larry Roux
> > > > > > Syracuse University
> > > > > > lroux@xxxxxxx
> > > > > > *******************************
> > > > > >
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