RE: VMs: RE: Yet another page

["GC" <glenclaston@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Very good!  See how mapping modern "assumptions" onto the past causes error?
I wouldn't know whether a book was kept standing or laying, which means we'd
need to see a few images from the past.  All drawings I've seen of libraries
have books standing on shelves.  Is this incorrect?

GC

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx]On
> Behalf Of ajb
> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 4:25 PM
> To: vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: VMs: RE: Yet another page
>
>
> In message <DJEOJIIHHOEOJPMMOPKDIEBNCEAA.glenclaston@xxxxxxxxxxx>, GC
> <glenclaston@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes
> >
> >
> >The list goes on, but in the end a far greater number of "dense"
> pages turn
> >out to be rectos than versos, after taking into account the
> amount of dark
> >shading in each plant figure, and therefore the density of the coloring.
> >This would tend to indicate that this occurred after the book was bound,
> >probably caused by moisture over a period of time, and that the book was
> >placed on its front cover laying flat for an unknown (and
> probably extended)
> >period of time, not sitting on a shelf upright.  That it was
> protected from
> >direct moisture, but not from seasonal damp.
> >
>
> I always understood that (supposing the VMS to be 15th century, as
> appears very likely) books of this period were usually stored lying flat
> on the shelf, probably in a chest or press - 'cupboard' - rather than
> upright as we do with books now, even when they were in regular use. A
> seldom-handled volume might well end up at the bottom of a stack and
> indeed be in a 'press'.
>
> >I did this study some time ago, but never felt a need to write it up,
> >thinking it was an obvious feature of the VMS.  I also once pondered that
> >the lighter bleed-through on the verso side might mean that the book was
> >laid face up for awhile, then moved, and eventually came to rest
> face down.
> >That would be pure speculation.  Gravity however, would overcome
> capillarity
> >action, etc., and make the transfer operate in more of a "down"
> direction,
> >causing the particles to fill pores in the vellum in a downward
> manner, and
> >with damp provide a path of least resistance downward.  It
> wouldn't overcome
> >all capillarity, so some "upward" transfer is possible.  This
> all depends on
> >size and density of the "color" particles in the ink and water-colors
> >involved.
> >
> >This is of course an amateur forensic observation, and a fuller
> examination
> >of this phenomenon might yield much greater detail.
> >
> >GC
>
> Some 'back of an envelope' calculations suggest that capillary
> attraction would be significantly stronger that gravitational effects.
>
> This is also an
> >amateur forensic observation
> and of course YMMV. But I think the whole question of analysis of
> "bleed-through" is very significant and I hope that there are better
> scientists than I on this list.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Regards
>
> Anthony
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx]On
> >> Behalf Of Nick Pelling
> >> Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 6:23 AM
> >> To: vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: RE: VMs: RE: Yet another page
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi GC,
> >>
> >> At 19:38 24/07/2003 -0500, GC wrote:
> >> >Nick wrote:
> >> > > I'm quite sure (from all the subtle bleed-across) that the
> >> folios in the
> >> > > first quire are in the same order that they were in when it was
> >> > > painted up
> >> > > - from that, I infer that they're probably in the correct order.
> >> <...snip...>
> >> >In addition, we must also consider that the majority of the
> >> "bleed-through"
> >> >was a factor of time and repeated changes of seasons, i.e, some damp
> >> >involved.  At least 200 years on a shelf or in a box, never
> opened, may
> >> >account for transfers seen in this mss that are not visible in
> >> "better read"
> >> >manuscripts of the same age.  In fact, the "bleed-through" in
> the VMS is
> >> >rare as manuscripts go, even at an age of 500 years, give or take.
> >>
> >> Are we talking about the same thing here? I'm talking about colours
> >> bleeding *across* pages, not *through* pages.
> >>
> >> As examples, I'd point to:-
> >> f3v - f4r       curve at top
> >> f4v - f5r       spot at top
> >> f5v - f6r       transfer 25% down
> >> f6v - f7r       symmetrical smudge in centre
> >> (f13v - f14r    old binding marks down centre?)
> >> f19v - f20r     three flowers at top
> >> f26v - f27r     transfer from top right to top left
> >> f29v - f30r     faint transfer at top
> >> f31v - f32r     flowers at top
> >> f32v - f33r     flower 25% down by edge (note - between quires!)
> >> f44v - f45r     parallel mark 25% down ?
> >> f49v - f50r     flower at top
> >> f55v - f56r     shapes near top (overlapping text)
> >> f94v - f95r1    three shapes near centre
> >>          (note that this points to the page being
> "concertina-ed" rather
> >> than folded in)
> >>
> >> These all:-
> >> (1) appear only on herbal pages
> >> (2) tend to be near the top or near the central binding gutter
> >> (3) appear not to coincide with any apparent water marks or
> damage to the
> >> vellum
> >>
> >> My interpretation of these is that some (if not all) of the
> painting was
> >> done after binding (or, at least, after arranging into quires
> and loosely
> >> binding).
> >>
> >> Caveat #1: I don't have colour references for most of these
> >> pages, so can't
> >> tell if all this bleed-across is associated with particular colours.
> >>
> >> Caveat #2: I also can't tell if the exact positions of these
> bleed-across
> >> transfers is coincident with the binding as we see it today - if it is,
> >> then we can be reasonably sure that (at least some) painting was done
> >> post-binding.
> >>
> >> One hypothesis that might tie this all up could be that the so-called
> >> "heavy painter" painted *after* binding, but the rest of the
> painting was
> >> done *before* binding. We'd probably need colour pictures (and a proper
> >> study of the binding in situ) to determine whether this was the
> >> case, though/
> >>
> >> Cheers, .....Nick Pelling.....
> >>
> >> PS: f93v appears to have some bleed-across from the last page of the
> >> missing quire 16 - it looks as though (the last page of) the
> >> missing quire
> >> 16 was also a herbal! :-o
> >>
> >>
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>
> --
>
> ajb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>         "If the self is an illusion, who is being fooled?"
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