Re: VMs: RE: Yet another page

[ajb <ajb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

In message <DJEOJIIHHOEOJPMMOPKDAEBPCEAA.glenclaston@xxxxxxxxxxx>, GC
<glenclaston@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes
>Very good!  See how mapping modern "assumptions" onto the past causes error?
>I wouldn't know whether a book was kept standing or laying, which means we'd
>need to see a few images from the past.  All drawings I've seen of libraries
>have books standing on shelves.  Is this incorrect?
>
>GC
>


For example

http://www.roe.ac.uk/acdwww/isdbssg/gemmafrisius.html

Our VMS might have spent quite some time knocking about loose or lying
on shelves, or standing; but spine uppermost? I hadn't thought of that
one.

And FWIW it somehow doesn't actually look to me like a book that has
spent much of its life standing, somehow. YMMV
The Beinecke scans -
http://www.geocities.com/animalculeuk/files/voynich/33v-34r_z3610587.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/animalculeuk/files/voynich/83v-84r_z3610590.jpg

Regards

Anthony  


Oh, and by the way, does that round thing with the books on it in this
charming book of hours remind you of anything?)
http://sunsite.org.uk/cgfa/limbourg/p-bfol94.htm

I once discussed how books were kept with the then curator of the
remarkable chained library at Hereford Cathedral. He suggested that it
was generally only the larger libraries that kept their books standing
upright, and then only the larger volumes.

The Hereford library as it is today
http://www.herefordcathedral.co.uk/Cathedral_Images/images/Library_chain
ed_lrge.jpg

Some of the peculiar people and plants in the Hereford "Mappa Mundi"
(c.1300) look familiar to a VMS student. The cathedral authorities are
now very strict indeed about copyright and reproduction of the map ever
since they tried to sell it some years ago and were prevented from doing
so and I'd better not reproduce my old print. Jeff, you're in the right
county; have you seen it - and what do you think? 

I re-did my calculations regarding gravity versus capillary forces and
they still came out with capillary more significant but only about an
order of magnitude greater this time using the upper limits for my
guestimates of pigment densities. Too many variables and unknown factors
to be much use other than a personal opinion.




>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx]On
>> Behalf Of ajb
>> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 4:25 PM
>> To: vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: VMs: RE: Yet another page
>>
>>
>> In message <DJEOJIIHHOEOJPMMOPKDIEBNCEAA.glenclaston@xxxxxxxxxxx>, GC
>> <glenclaston@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes
>> >
>> >
>> >The list goes on, but in the end a far greater number of "dense"
>> pages turn
>> >out to be rectos than versos, after taking into account the
>> amount of dark
>> >shading in each plant figure, and therefore the density of the coloring.
>> >This would tend to indicate that this occurred after the book was bound,
>> >probably caused by moisture over a period of time, and that the book was
>> >placed on its front cover laying flat for an unknown (and
>> probably extended)
>> >period of time, not sitting on a shelf upright.  That it was
>> protected from
>> >direct moisture, but not from seasonal damp.
>> >
>>
>> I always understood that (supposing the VMS to be 15th century, as
>> appears very likely) books of this period were usually stored lying flat
>> on the shelf, probably in a chest or press - 'cupboard' - rather than
>> upright as we do with books now, even when they were in regular use. A
>> seldom-handled volume might well end up at the bottom of a stack and
>> indeed be in a 'press'.
>>
>> >I did this study some time ago, but never felt a need to write it up,
>> >thinking it was an obvious feature of the VMS.  I also once pondered that
>> >the lighter bleed-through on the verso side might mean that the book was
>> >laid face up for awhile, then moved, and eventually came to rest
>> face down.
>> >That would be pure speculation.  Gravity however, would overcome
>> capillarity
>> >action, etc., and make the transfer operate in more of a "down"
>> direction,
>> >causing the particles to fill pores in the vellum in a downward
>> manner, and
>> >with damp provide a path of least resistance downward.  It
>> wouldn't overcome
>> >all capillarity, so some "upward" transfer is possible.  This
>> all depends on
>> >size and density of the "color" particles in the ink and water-colors
>> >involved.
>> >
>> >This is of course an amateur forensic observation, and a fuller
>> examination
>> >of this phenomenon might yield much greater detail.
>> >
>> >GC
>>
>> Some 'back of an envelope' calculations suggest that capillary
>> attraction would be significantly stronger that gravitational effects.
>>
>> This is also an
>> >amateur forensic observation
>> and of course YMMV. But I think the whole question of analysis of
>> "bleed-through" is very significant and I hope that there are better
>> scientists than I on this list.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Anthony
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx]On
>> >> Behalf Of Nick Pelling
>> >> Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 6:23 AM
>> >> To: vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> Subject: RE: VMs: RE: Yet another page
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi GC,
>> >>
>> >> At 19:38 24/07/2003 -0500, GC wrote:
>> >> >Nick wrote:
>> >> > > I'm quite sure (from all the subtle bleed-across) that the
>> >> folios in the
>> >> > > first quire are in the same order that they were in when it was
>> >> > > painted up
>> >> > > - from that, I infer that they're probably in the correct order.
>> >> <...snip...>
>> >> >In addition, we must also consider that the majority of the
>> >> "bleed-through"
>> >> >was a factor of time and repeated changes of seasons, i.e, some damp
>> >> >involved.  At least 200 years on a shelf or in a box, never
>> opened, may
>> >> >account for transfers seen in this mss that are not visible in
>> >> "better read"
>> >> >manuscripts of the same age.  In fact, the "bleed-through" in
>> the VMS is
>> >> >rare as manuscripts go, even at an age of 500 years, give or take.
>> >>
>> >> Are we talking about the same thing here? I'm talking about colours
>> >> bleeding *across* pages, not *through* pages.
>> >>
>> >> As examples, I'd point to:-
>> >> f3v - f4r       curve at top
>> >> f4v - f5r       spot at top
>> >> f5v - f6r       transfer 25% down
>> >> f6v - f7r       symmetrical smudge in centre
>> >> (f13v - f14r    old binding marks down centre?)
>> >> f19v - f20r     three flowers at top
>> >> f26v - f27r     transfer from top right to top left
>> >> f29v - f30r     faint transfer at top
>> >> f31v - f32r     flowers at top
>> >> f32v - f33r     flower 25% down by edge (note - between quires!)
>> >> f44v - f45r     parallel mark 25% down ?
>> >> f49v - f50r     flower at top
>> >> f55v - f56r     shapes near top (overlapping text)
>> >> f94v - f95r1    three shapes near centre
>> >>          (note that this points to the page being
>> "concertina-ed" rather
>> >> than folded in)
>> >>
>> >> These all:-
>> >> (1) appear only on herbal pages
>> >> (2) tend to be near the top or near the central binding gutter
>> >> (3) appear not to coincide with any apparent water marks or
>> damage to the
>> >> vellum
>> >>
>> >> My interpretation of these is that some (if not all) of the
>> painting was
>> >> done after binding (or, at least, after arranging into quires
>> and loosely
>> >> binding).
>> >>
>> >> Caveat #1: I don't have colour references for most of these
>> >> pages, so can't
>> >> tell if all this bleed-across is associated with particular colours.
>> >>
>> >> Caveat #2: I also can't tell if the exact positions of these
>> bleed-across
>> >> transfers is coincident with the binding as we see it today - if it is,
>> >> then we can be reasonably sure that (at least some) painting was done
>> >> post-binding.
>> >>
>> >> One hypothesis that might tie this all up could be that the so-called
>> >> "heavy painter" painted *after* binding, but the rest of the
>> painting was
>> >> done *before* binding. We'd probably need colour pictures (and a proper
>> >> study of the binding in situ) to determine whether this was the
>> >> case, though/
>> >>
>> >> Cheers, .....Nick Pelling.....
>> >>
>> >> PS: f93v appears to have some bleed-across from the last page of the
>> >> missing quire 16 - it looks as though (the last page of) the
>> >> missing quire
>> >> 16 was also a herbal! :-o
>> >>
>> >>
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>>
>> --
>>
>> ajb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>         "If the self is an illusion, who is being fooled?"
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