Re: Re: Re: VMs: Re: Voynich manuscript - Manchu solution claim by Z Banasik

["Jeff" <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Nick you just have to stop showing off! :-)

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Pelling" <incoming@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vms-list@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: 07 May 2004 16:10
Subject: Re: Re: Re: VMs: Re: Voynich manuscript - Manchu solution claim by
Z Banasik


> Hi everyone,
>
> Wr
>
> http://assets.cambridge.org/0521243343/sample/0521243343WS.pdf
>
> Gertraude Roth Li writes:-
>
> Page 19:-
> The most striking example of the Jurchens borrowing from the
> culture of the stepper was in the realm of language. Jurchen
> language is affiliated with the Tungusic branch of the Altaic
> language family. The early Jurchens adapted the Khitan script
> to write their own language. Literary Jurchen died out soon
> after the fall of the Chin dynasty in the thirteenth century, but
> spoken Jurchen remained current as the lingua franca of the
> Manchurian region. For correspondence and record keeping,
> Jurchen chiefs used Mongolian, though some records, both
> commercial and governmental were kept in Chinese with the
> aid of Chinese scribes. It was not until the end of the
> sixteenth century [1599] that associates of Nurhaci [the Manchu
> leader] adapted the Mongolian alphabet to write Jurchen and
> thus created a new Jurchen literary language which became
> known as Manchu.
>
> Even prior to the adaptation of the Mongolian language, the
> Jurchen language contained many words and concepts of
> Mongolian origin. An estimated 20-30 percent of the Manchu
> vocabulary is of Mongolian origin.
>
> See also: Nicholas Poppe, "Introduction to Altaic linguistics (Wiesbaden,
> 1965), pp.160-1
>
> Page 27:-
> The term Manchu (manju) occurs in the records of Nurhaci's
> time [in 1613, though Huang Chang-chien notes that it occurs
> in a Korean document of 1605]. However, it was formally
> adopted only in 1635.
>
> Page 28:-
> Many of the earliest documents written in this [Manchu] script
> are preserved in the Old Manchu Archives (Chiu Man-chou tang),
> a collection of Manchu documents from 1607 to 1636
> [there's a modern edition, foreword by Ch'en Chieh-hsien,
> 10 vols, Taipei, 1969].
>
> So: old written Jurchen had died out before 1444, and so if the VMs is
> written in Manchu, its earliest date is 1599, and we should also see some
> similarities with written Mongolian. However, Banasik's "proto-Manchu"
> seems doubtful, as Manchu was formally constructed as a written Jurchen
> using elements of Mongolian by two of Nurhaci's advisors (see p.28 above).
> The VMs could be compared against the Old Manchu Archives for
> similarities... but I still think this is unlikely. But feel free to prove
> me wrong! :-o
>
> Cheers, .....Nick Pelling.....
>
>
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