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Re: Re: VMs: Manchu theory



Hi,

For benefit of those who do not read Polish, let me roughly translate some interesting points from the related article,  dated: 03-10-29. It means the article  appeared in October, last year and there was apparently no follow-up or disclosure of proofs. 
------------------------- 
Mr. Banasik learned about the VM from the article in the magazine Focus, with the attractive title "Ksiega zagadek czyli Mount Everest szyfrologii" ( The book (?) of mysteries (puzzles?) or The Mount Everest of Cryptology". Here I quote some sentences from the article (original quotation starts with * and the translation is in CAPITAL letters)

* Syn wydrukowal 58 z 234 stron - tyle, ile jest dostepnych na stronach www. 

BANASIK'S SON PULLED DOWN 58 PAGES  THAT ARE ACCESSIBLE ON NET.

* W takich jezykach jak mandzurski, finski, arabski, znam zaledwie po kilkaset slów.

IN THOSE LANGUAGES AS MANCHURIAN, FINNISH, ARABIAN, I KNOW SEVERAL HUNDRED WORDS (SAYS BANASIK,  J.H.)... 

* Po wielogodzinnym badaniu tekstu Voynicha Zbigniew Banasik doszedl do wniosku, ze nie jest to kryptogram, lecz naturalny jezyk. 

AFTER LONGER RESEARCH (LITERARY: AFTER MANY HOURS) OF THE VM TEXT, Z.B. REACHED THE CONCLUSION THAT IT  IS  NOT SOME CRYPTOGRAM, BUT NATURAL LANGUAGE
(My comment: Z.B. may  be expert on languages - even being an amateur - but there is nowhere mentioning he is also an cryptography expert, j.h.)

* "Porównujac rózne alfabety i jezyki stwierdzilem wreszcie, ze istnieje duze podobienstwo do jezyka mandzurskiego" - powiedzial amator-lingwista. 

BY  COMAPRING VARIOUS ALPHABETS AND LANGUAGE . . . I DECLARE THERE IS CERTAIN SIMILARITY TO  MANCHURIAN LANGUAGE  SAYS TEH AMATEUR-LINGUIST ( Notice he does not say "with Manchurian script", j.h. )

* "Przez analogie do innych alfabetów, wspólczesnych i dawnych, odtworzylem caly system fonologii, czyli system dzwieków. Udalo mi sie odczytac alfabet - 45 liter, z czego jednej nie znalazlem w tekscie, oraz zgodnosc ponad 50 slów z jezykiem mandzurskim. Istnieje mozliwosc, ze w alfabecie wystepuje dodatkowo 5-6 liter, które moga wystapic w slowach zapozyczonych.

THROUGH ANALOGIES WITH OTHER ALPHABETS, CONTEMPORARY AS WELL AS ANCIENT, I SET-UP THE WHOLE SYSTEM OF PHONOLOGY . . . I SUCCEEDED TO RECOGNIZE 45 LETTERS  . . .AND 50 WORDS IN MANCHURIAN LANGUAGE. IT  IS  POSSIBLE THAT THERE ARE also 4-6 LETTERS IN THE ALPHABET, APPEARING (only?,  my question, j.h.) ONLY IN THE FOREIGN WORDS.

* Banasik podstawy tego jezyka poznal z ksiazki "Jezyk mandzurski" autorstwa Jerzego Tulisowa. "Tulisow moze moralnie czuc sie wspólodkrywca pisma" 

BANASIK GOT THE SUBSTANCE OF THE LANGUAGE FROM THE BOOK "THE MANCHURIAN  LANGUAGE" BY JERZY TULISOW. "TULISOW CAN BE RECOGNIZED AS THE RE-DISCOVERER OF THE SCRIPT" SAYS BANASIK.

My comment: now we only  need to read the above book, but I doubt if we find the script there either.

Regards,

Jan

======= At 2004-05-11, 22:28:00 you wrote: =======

>Hi everyone,
>
>At 16:57 11/05/2004 -0300, Jorge Stolfi wrote (quoting Rafal Prinke):
>>Rafal has kindly provided an execturive summary:
>>
>>   > He states that the VMS is a "shaman's manual" and was written
>>   > between 13th c. BC and 3rd c. AD - most probably in the 4th c. BC.
>>   > It is in Old Manchurian and Bansik says he has reconstructed the
>>   > alphabet of 45 letters and over 50 words which are Old Manchurian.
>
>AFIACT, the key spoken language in that region was Jurchen: the (1599) 
>written language (which a little later came to be known as Manchu or manju) 
>was a written form of that language, using many elements appropriated from 
>the Mongolian alphabet (but adding extra marks later to disambiguate words 
>etc). Earlier written Jurchen looked nothing like that:-
>         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurchen
>
>4th c. BC? The Mongolian language dates only to the 12th Century CE:-
>         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_language
>
>This Mongolian alphabet...
>         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_alphabet
>
>....was based on the [Old] Uighur alphabet...
>         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uighur_alphabet
>
>....but even that doesn't appear to date back much further. No, sorry - I 
>don't see how this claim even begins to match the historical record... 
>please tell me if I'm missing something!
>
>Cheers, .....Nick Pelling..... 
>
>
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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
			

Best regards.				 
Jan
 Our mail is always sent without attachments.
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic2/ohlas/VM/ Voynich Manuscript  


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