Re: Re: Re: VMs: Thoughts about Roman numbers in the VMS

["Jan" <hurychj@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hello GC,  

>Your Mr. Young is following in the footsteps of a master, namely myself. 

 Still, we do have to give him the credit for interesting detour, don't you think? :-).  I did once 
published similar study, but I was not probably first either.   It is obvious that the "characters" are 
constructed from several basic strokes, which are used in the subgroup of certain combinations.  Is 
there intent behind this? I would say yes, but we still need proof.   Also, it covers only the part of the 
"alphabet".

 >His initial presentation is
wrong of course, but he has the rudiments, and the light will soon shine.  

We can hardly say it is wrong unless we see the right solution and we didn't see one yet :-).
Let's say it would not work yet, but   as you said,  "Mr. Young is correct in his assumption that
 there is a definite pattern in their construction."   As I said, it all looks like somebody deliberately 
constructed at least the part of the system. We can see also some Latin abbreviation were used, but 
hardly in their original sense. My guess is that there are also some other elements of shorthand, so we 
may probably talk about mixed system. 

> It's up to him to now
>determine the number in each order, and the sequence of each order of
>construction.  This you can only do from frequency and placement study, and
>in order to perform such a study, you have to actually record the variants,
>something that has been done in only one transcription  to date.

Well, most of us agree that the script is unlike the others and there is a strong suspicion it was 
designed - or assembled, if you prefer - and probably by one person only. If you think it only 
evolved, you are facing the problem of "missing link"  and since there is not other document written 
in that script, that  can throw a great doubt on that, too.  On the other hand, if the script was created by 
somebody, he would most likely gather the simple combinations, arranged them in a table and 
assign the arbitrary values. He could have known the frequency of certain characters in Latin (I 
have read that medieval monks have already done that),  
and may it even partially  use it for his assignment, but I believe there is more to it than meets the 
eye. The possibility of some shorthand cannot be excluded even in this stage.

>You're warm, very warm.  Mr. Young's table does not yet incorporate the
>symbolism that links one glyph to another.  He's only yet exploring basic
>forms, many of which appear similar, but are by demonstration in the actual
>text, dissimilar in context and meaning.

Yes, there must be connection, arranging it mechanically in the table does not explain too much. On 
the other hand, the author might have assigned the values arbitrarily, same way as EVA does. And 
as far as I know, EVA is even using some former assignments, based mainly on graphic similarity 
of symbols as  well as some completely new. If you say that  the original assignment  might have 
some other, more sophisticated reason, I agree 100 percent. 

>You're trying to reach too many conclusions without hard evidence at hand,
>and I would suggest that you take a step back and let the evidence itself
>begin to build your case.  

Well, I am not making conclusions, only mentioning the visible facts - the organization is there. The 
explanation I do not have and I am neither jumping to conclusion that  your explanation is the only 
one :-).

 The
>first step is one into the real world, where Latin abbreviations form the
>basis for the script.  Accept the fact that the author was no Da Vinci, that
>he didn't come up with this s....tuff on his own, and work from there.  

Well, let us say we can see the similarity. So far, accepting the known meaning of Latin 
abbreviations for the VM did not lead to any solution, so it is just another hypothesis in many.
As for da Vinci, the author apparently did more than compilation. All in the VM is indicating he  
was smart enough - otherwise we would have solved it already. Besides, as far as the creation of 
set of stroke  combinations, one does not need to be too smart :-). Yes, so he used some existing 
Latin abbreviations, he may have even tried to make the whole alphabet based on them, but the 
meaning behind them, that is the different question. 

>Look instead
>at what was known, why the author chose it and what the author did with it.
>NO ONE, and I can't say that loudly enough, makes so many accurate matches
>to known systems of notation from his own genius alone. 

Well, you are talking the graphic match, as for meaning itself, you still have to  prove it, loud enough.
But I agree that we have to take one and one approach only: to find what exactly the author was 
thinking, what was in his mind. Without it, all our mechanical research, including computer number 
crunching, will not get us too far.

>... and that the strokes are part of an
>overall system of alphabetic notation, written usually as Latin, and are
>primarily a function of the writing instrument and the writing medium, the
>guiding lights in medieval script construction.  

Absolutely.   The pen was made as shown here
 http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/tools/quill.htm
and was similar top calligraphic pen of our days. It also seems that medieval quill had the tip cut 
more flat than it was done in later periods,  judging by  the almost "gothic style"  characters, still 
rather "printed" then "drawn" and with very thick or thin strokes. The VM does not have this "fat" 
shading, it looks like the pen tip was still chisel type  but not so wide, from the time when real cursive 
and connected script was already used, where "wider chisel" would be an obstacle.  When I tried 
to write in VM script, with artistic felt pen (with 2 chisel tips on each end), I could have write it 
OK, but it did not feel right, I had to use the thinner tip.

>From  the description in the above link, I presume that the quill tip had already the center slot for 
better delivery  of the ink and the halves of the tip were spreading when more pressure was applied. 
Also such pen was resisting to be pushed "uphill", while with felt pen such resistance was minimal. 
It would be interesting now to recreate all symbols with exact direction they were written - for 
instance symbol "8" can be written l in one stroke ( 2  possibilities: clockwise and 
counterclockwise) or in two strokes ( two "S" crossing, the other "S" being a mirror and lifting the 
pen in between). Also, some "composites" can reveal if they are made of "two strokes" or in one 
( judging by the smoothness of corners and exactness of their meeting).

Jan 
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Best regards.				 
Jan
 Our mail is always sent without attachments.
 http://hurontaria.baf.cz/enigma/ Enigma, nas novy casopis zahad


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