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Re: Re: Re: Re: VMs: Cardan grille
======= You wrote:
> But then how do you decipher it? The text is only decipherable if it is
either physically consistent with the grill or can be restored to such a
form, e.g., by using typefaces of predictable dimensions. Once you start
recopying a manuscript you are unlikely to get exact correspondence, even
granting that a practiced scribe from the period before printing is more
likely to be regular than one of us moderns.
Well, we already agreed that he grill cannot be used, in its physical form,
for deciphering - if however the code was generated by algorithm, one can copy
the whole string - say one "sentence" (even if we do not know if it is a sentence,
there is no full stop) literally from the VM - EVA transcript does exactly that :-).
Such a fragment can be then worked out different way: he, who knew the algorithm,
could just follow it, we, who don't, are stuck. It would be very difficult task, since
we do not know the language used and even if we guess one (there is many possible
alphabets) and it may be the random filling ( I hate that term, it reminds me the
dentist :-). For instance, we may assume that the plaintext as well as the filling were
using the same signs for the same letter, we can do the letter frequency graph and
choose one alphabet and - sorry, we still not get too far :-). Those, you can see, are
still simplifications with no guarantee. I am tempted to say that such system cannot
be cracked without the key, if different key (or number set, meaning Jacques's
algorithm) was used for each page. In other words, almost perfecrt crime.
My assumption actually is, that each page was coded with different set and each
key was hidden in the picture on that page. Why directly in the VM? The manuscript
is apparently the only original, it is very dificult to solve and the author may have
guessed that it would take 400 years to recognize it and then he would not be in any
danger :-). Or those were the secret spells or chants used for secret procedures and
it was dangerous to keep the list of keys around. On the othe hand, in future, keys
cannot be really lost and without keys the text of the book would be lost forever.
Just guessing, of course.
>It seems to me that the discussion of grills here goes to demonstrate that
>it is exceedingly unlikely that a Cardan Grill was used in the standard
>way to encode the VMs. It's possible that a grill (or something
>functionally equivalent) was used in a Ruggian (or Fincherian) fashion to
>select text from a carefully aligned table, in order to enter it into the
>manuscript, producing either structured "random" text or an actual
Right. It would explain some grammatical or other difficulties, the language that does
not have longer words and other mysteries - correction: not them, but their
>In either case I think it should be possible to deduce the process for
>creation, though so far no one has managed to do so. I think it is
>adequately clear that the process was something far more structured than
>simple mental selection of a "random" character to write, but anyone who
>claims that a particular kind of process was involved has to come up with
>a working demonstration of the process to prove the case. Not something
>that generates results reminiscent of the VMs, but something that
>generates exactly the VMs, or some reasonable portion of it.
Of course - such system, containing say only 75 percent gibberish, cannot be
This is not my point, contrary to Gord I am not claiming it was really used in the
VM - what I am saying is that this way, the sensible text could be encoded there and
results will still look like gibberish :-). So even if Gord comes with VM gibberish
lookalike, the VM could still contain some sensible text.
>If the hypothesis is that the text is gibberish, then the process can be
>allowed a random component, but a particular process should have to be
>demonstrated, e.g., by a specific, but arbitrary series of movements with a
>particular Rugg Grill on a particular source table generate the first page
>of the VMs.
He may probably come up with some lookalikes soon, otherwise he may be quickly
forgotten as another dreamer :-). So we should be ready with our tests and choose
them very carefully. Let's not be confused with superficial lokealikeness - Saddam
had several lookalikes, but we all know none of them was the one who was caught -
or was he? :-)
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