Re: Re: Re: Re: VMs: Cardan grille

["jan" <hurychj@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hello John,  
  
  
=======  You wrote:  
>  But then how do you decipher it?  The text is only decipherable if it is
either physically consistent with the grill or can be restored to such a
form, e.g., by using typefaces of predictable dimensions.  Once you start
recopying a manuscript you are unlikely to get exact correspondence, even
granting that a practiced scribe from the period before printing is more
likely to be regular than one of us moderns.

Well, we already agreed that he grill cannot be used, in its  physical form, 
for deciphering -  if however the code  was generated by algorithm, one can copy 
the whole string - say one "sentence" (even if we do not know if it is a sentence, 
there is no full stop) literally from the VM - EVA  transcript does exactly that :-).  
Such a fragment can be then worked out  different way: he, who knew the algorithm, 
could just follow it, we, who don't, are stuck. It would be very difficult task, since 
we do not know the language used and even if we guess one (there is many possible 
alphabets) and it may be the random filling ( I hate that term, it reminds me the 
dentist :-). For instance, we may assume that the plaintext as well as the filling were 
using the same signs for the same letter, we can do the letter frequency graph and 
choose one alphabet and  - sorry, we still not  get too far :-). Those, you can see, are 
still simplifications with no guarantee. I am tempted to say that such system cannot 
be cracked without the key, if different key (or number set, meaning Jacques's 
algorithm) was used for each page. In  other words, almost perfecrt crime.

My assumption actually is,   that each page was coded with different set and each 
key was  hidden in the picture on that page. Why directly in the VM? The manuscript 
is apparently the only original, it is very dificult to solve and the author may have 
guessed that it would take 400 years to recognize it and then he would not be in any 
danger :-). Or those were the secret spells or chants used for secret procedures and 
it was dangerous to keep the list of keys around. On the othe hand, in future, keys 
cannot be really lost and without keys the text of the book would be lost forever.   
Just guessing, of course.

>It seems to me that the discussion of grills here goes to demonstrate that
>it is exceedingly unlikely that a Cardan Grill was used in the standard
>way to encode the VMs.  It's possible that a grill (or something
>functionally equivalent) was used in a Ruggian (or Fincherian) fashion to
>select text from a carefully aligned table, in order to enter it into the
>manuscript, producing either structured "random" text or an actual
>encryption.

Right. It would explain some grammatical or other difficulties, the language that does 
not have longer words and other mysteries  - correction: not them, but their 
existence. 
>
>In either case I think it should be possible to deduce the process for
>creation, though so far no one has managed to do so.  I think it is
>adequately clear that the process was something far more structured than
>simple mental selection of a "random" character to write, but anyone who
>claims that a particular kind of process was involved has to come up with
>a working demonstration of the process to prove the case.  Not something
>that generates results reminiscent of the VMs, but something that
>generates exactly the VMs, or some reasonable portion of it.

Of course - such system, containing say only 75  percent gibberish, cannot be 
proven either.
This is not my point, contrary to Gord I am not claiming it was really used in the 
VM - what I am saying is that this way, the sensible text could be encoded there and 
results will still look like gibberish :-).  So even if Gord comes with VM gibberish 
lookalike, the VM could still contain some sensible text. 
>
>If the hypothesis is that the text is gibberish, then the process can be
>allowed a random component, but a particular process should have to be
>demonstrated, e.g., by a specific, but arbitrary series of movements with a
>particular Rugg Grill on a particular source table generate the first page
>of the VMs.

He may probably come up with some lookalikes soon, otherwise he may be quickly 
forgotten as another dreamer :-). So  we should be ready with our tests and choose 
them very carefully. Let's not be confused with superficial lokealikeness -  Saddam 
had several lookalikes, but we all know none of them was the one who was caught -  
or was he? :-)

jan
 
 



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