VMs: Re: entropy, shorthand systems, gallows characters

["Wayne Durden" <wdurden@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Thank you Dennis and Jacques for your recent posts.  That first sample, the
BON SANG sample gives me that same impression!  Looks like a gallows
character.

Overall, I think the observation at that site that there is enough variety
in the scripts in the Middle Ages such that none of the Voynich characters
are as wild as they first appear is about in line after reviewing the script
variety for the eight versions at the Charrette project.  Enormous range in
alphabet glyphs, writing styles, spelling, etc.

Addressing entropy and shorthand, Jacques wrote:
>
> On the contrary, there is more scattering in shorthand. Most shorthands
> dispense with the vowels. This increases the uncertainty of "what is
> going to turn up next?".

Jacques, I understand how this would be the case in shorthand systems like
Pittman that do dispense with vowels (some of which use dots or, in Gregg,
strokes to indicate vowel sounds), but I am not yet convinced the entropy
studies would apply or would be so for a complete phonic takedown with
vowels.  Here is what I was thinking.   Usually shorthand is used to capture
complete speech fast, i.e. the necessity of Cicero's amanuesis Tiro to come
up with a system to capture his speech.  In these cases, the scribe knows
the language and vowel predictability would be high to the taker on
readback.  But if the scribe doesn't know the language he is taking down, a
system that omits vowels would present more of a challenge on later
readback.  While there are some accent marks in the text, there do not be
enough to stand for vowels as dots in modern shorthands nor do there appear
to be as many stroke modifiers as in modern Gregg shorthand.  Furthermore,
the text itself contains glyphs which appear to be vowels in our current
usage and which the various alphabets, Bennet, EVA, etc. attribute to
vowels.

I certainly now understand the usage of entropy in the concept of the
predictability of the next character as you graciously explained.  Is there
a proper term I should use for the concept of the same information content
as a plaintext message in a message with fewer glyphs overall, or where one
glyph does multiple duty such as f serving for f, ph, gh (as in telephone,
tough).   In other words, same exact (sound) info content in a more compact
glyph presentation than the native language transcription, what word should
I use to properly describe that property for discussion purposes?

 I certainly understand that from a cipher standpoint, f doing multiple duty
would lesson the the predictability of the following letter, and am
searching for the way to convey the concept to say that a system of phonemes
can capture the soundstream with less variety than the soundstream written
properly in its native form.

I was under the impression that the stenographic system in use at the firm
we principally used captured phonemes with vowel sounds in the takedown not
omitted. ( I am in Savannah, Georgia, the firm was Crites Reporting and they
recruited virtually all of their reporters from a prominent court reporting
school in the Midwest [Iowa or Indiana] so I can follow up specifically and
report back).  The reason I think this is I was once involved in an
Admiralty dispute where a ship ran over a shrimping vessel.  The captain was
deposed.  He claimed he did not speak fluent English and there was a
translator.  The court reporter did not speak the language of the captain,
and the quality of the translation by the translator supplied by the
captain's shipping company became an issue during the deposition.  There was
an agreement where the court reporter would take down the sounds of the
captain as well as the translation, and there were some readbacks at the
beginning of the process to get the translator to agree that it was
sonically a good takedown of the foreign language.  It was a wild experience
and degraded rapidly :)  Eventually, the deposition ground to a halt to be
convened again when the various parties had their own translators.  I
believe the captain's language was Egyptian but can't say for certain, it
was about 12 years ago...

If anyone has specific info on the prevailing methods of stenographic
recording by modern court reporters, I would be interested to know if the
prevailing methods taught would enable one to plunk down an "ignorant
American court reporter" into a German or French deposition and although the
court reporter of course wouldn't be able to prepare the final transcript in
German or French language, would the readback by the court reporter (or
better yet, a readback by another reporter of the same school) sound much
like German or French at the end of the deposition?  In an omitted vowel
sound method, I wouldn't expect the stenographer could make good inferences
afterward not knowing the native language, but again, this is only a guess
at this point.

In short, I am not yet convinced entropy studies related to shorthand
systems for speed to keep up with normal speech would apply to a method
designed to capture as accurately as possible the soundstream where speed of
transcription is not a factor, and the latter method might make most sense
if the scribe doesn't speak well the language he is capturing.
--------
On another note, is there anyone on the list particularly interested in, or
who has concentrated most on, translating the short labels with
corresponding plant illustrations and/or the months.  I am most interested
on collaborating about translations on f101v2 which can be viewed here:

http://voynich.com/folios/f101v1.jpg


This is the page where I think item 2-2 translates phonically to aster (not
necessarily identifying the plant as a whole but relating to the
inflorescence part of the plant in the context of this folio).  I am trying
to use the Voynich concordance to collect instances of this word from the
entire text, but subtle script variations between "e" and "a" and on
occasion "o" make this more difficult than I thought.

I think item 2-4  on that folio may relate to the odor of the leaves (a
phonetic capture of French "odeur" ).  Per my study, the odor of burning
aster leaves in Miedeval periods  was widely believed to ward off serpents,
see, i.e. the nonscholarly summary here:

http://www.gardencards.biz/html/flowerhistory.htm

I find odar and odor (phonetically and identical takedown) in a few
locations on separate plant folios to be of interest and again, to add
another item to the potential todo list.  See, i.e. the fourth word of line
2 of f94r.

http://voynich.com/folios/f94r.jpg

The aster translation requires the EVA alphabet characters for T and K to
not in fact be separate and distinct glyphs in the text.  To my eye I can
see how the EVA K form may be a loop skip only and from a review of other
old french texts I see enough variation of script characters transcribed to
the same modern character to plausibly believe these 2 EVA characters are
not 2 different letters but variations in the writing.


Also, at one point in my notes I captured some discussion related to the
label with the Pisces illustration but I didn't capture the source enabling
me to go back to it and can't find it via Google.  It may have been Pelling
as I have that written down in proximity?  The gist of the comment was that
the label was too short to have make much sense in the context with Pisces.
What I would like to float is that to whoever that very short label was
significant, would an alphabet where the EVA "y" glyph, Bennet "G" glyph was
changed to a phonic capture of a "j" sound (as the sound in
the color Roughe). Would that make any difference?  From my handwritten
notes
and without going back to the folio it might make the phonic word sound like
"age" or otage - possibly translating to  "of the age"?  There are a lot of
word ending EVA "y" glyphs, and there are interesting french results to me
if it is phonic "j" as in menage.

Admittedly, I know little to nothing still of how old or middle french
sounded with regard to dipthongs, nasalization, etc. as compared to modern
French (of which I also have only moderate exposure).  These word ending J
sounds with a phonic takedown seem intriguing nonetheless, and would
appreciate any input Jacques.

Thanks for your indulgence.

Wayne


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