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Re: VMs: Link between Phaistos Disk & VMs...!?

Thank you Elmar for the links and I apologize if I misread the tone of the

  I have found images and followed references to such from earlier list
postings like these as well.  I acknowledge the similarities which you find
convincing, but personally am hesitant to say "Bam, that's it, this is
distinct to that period." Just to show you why I remain ambivalent and open
minded, one of your links might be compared to one of mine of more than 1000
years difference.  Here is one of yours:

"The rest of the Sag' outfit can be found at:


(If memory serves -- I have my notes at home) pointing as well to France,
this time in the early 15th century."

And I would offer one of the images of Dacians surrendering from the column
of Trajan at:


Most of the Dacians in this particular depiction are hatless, although other
depictions show them with hats and one on the bottom here which may be a
woman appears with a hanging hat and with what appears to be a tassle in
this image, but in others is not, it is the shadow which makes it so.  A
thousand year difference and yet it is not out of my realm to say that the
voynich sagitarius at beinecke 1006207.jpg is not dressed somewhat like this
as much as the 15th century garb you referenced.  Indeed, some dacian
depictions have shirts fashioned in a rough fashion at the neck, while some
are completely finsihed.  Is the Sagitarian archer in stockings or leggings,
and how much artistic looseness did the drawer employ?  Other Trajan Dacian
depictions vary substantially.  What I find interesting are some of the
facial features and hairstyles.    Furthermore, I would note that the hat
length on your link above is in fact more like the typical Dacian hat
depiction than the Sagitarias image in VMS.  Other of your links have longer
hats but they appear as nobleman costumes and not a hunter's outfit.  Others
have disputed the 15th century outfit as not Flemish but rather Florentine,
and I have reviewed the considerable debate.  After looking at all the
references I have been able to turn up, and reviewing the multiple
depictions on Trajan's column along with the descriptions of Dacian costume,
habit, living arrangements by ancient historians such as Jordanes,
Herodotus, Strabo, and modern characterizations on wikipedia and fan sites,
I am simply of the opinion at this time, that the archer's garb is not the
dealbreaker which you seemed to be suggesting that definitively dates the
manuscript as opposed to an origin 1000 years or so earlier...  I have also
researched the mechanism of the crossbow at length following this chain as
well as the fortress in the mountains.  If we had the entire history of the
goths by Dios Cassiodorus which Jordanes references, but which is largely
lost, based on accounts of its reported volume, almost surely the question
could be answered definitively.

  Interestingly, there are some ancient history references to peculiar
vessels that Dacians kept in their dwellings, a strange kind of cup that
supposedly turns up in archaelogical digs that I am trying to get info on to
compare them to the peculiar vessels in the VMS. If anyone has any info on
these peculiar cups or vessels I would be most interested.   Although I have
found several general references to these strange items, I can't find any
images or detailed descriptions as to the characteristics that makes them

Similar to the clothing, after much searching the uniqueness of the
curvature in the script which at first examination causes many to place it
15th Century is not absent from some much earlier greek miniscule samples
and indeed the general separateness of the characters points to much earlier
writing styles.  Admittedly, the problem I have most moving the writing back
is the "Bon Sang" gallows sample from Capelli, but unfortunately we don't
know where it was sourced from.  The bottom line is that there is enormous
variance in dress and writing such that neither has yet proven to be an
absolute dealbreaker to me when confronted with a possible explanation in
multiple accounts of a Dacian writing system that was real and which
addressed (in the writings that still existed in the 400 A.D. time period
according to Jordanes) the subject matter depicted in the VMS.  Recently on
the list I think there was some discussion that should at least give one
pause to conclude too hastily this is in fact 15th century humanist hand.

I absolutely understant that this would appear on its face an outlandish
suggestion, the manuscript is more than 1000 years older than suspected...
I think not as outlandish as Mayan contact however, after following the
chain of the eariest appearance of parchment in Turkey and Bulgaria.  Indeed
a little digging into the history of Pergamum and the library and medical
facility there at that time period is fascinating.  The fact is per the
histories ofthe ancients, there existed thousands of parchment manuscripts
much earlier than any we now can look at, and we simply don't know how they
were written.  Our instruments of comparison are few and recent compared to
the manuscripts were kept at Pergamum, Tyre, and Alexandria.  What is known
is that people haven't changed much and the wisest of the ages, such as
Pythagoros or Dicineus would be considered wise today.

 Fortunately, this is a crazy hypothesis that should be subject to being
easily disproven by a group of many eyes and diverse talent, and it is in
all likelihood suitable for being disproven by scientific examination as
well if someone of cautious and reputable demeanor could convince Yale to do
a comprehensive physical study.  I just am not convinced by the archer's
costume alone nor the ladies hats, from my searches to conclude that these
couldn't have existed in earlier times, and will continue the line of search
for the time being.   Honestly, this wouldn't have been brought up to the
list level at this point at all, except that recent posts have started
hitting all around the issue including references to nordic issues and the
mention of Dr. Savescu's work on the Codex Rho. and he apparently is in the
forefront of Dacian advocacy,  and in a moment of weakness I spilled the

I also apologize for the confusion in reference to Turkey in my earlier
posting.  I of course realize that it is not Central Europe.  Rather, it is
within the realm where the subgroup is looking in our research (primarily
Bulgaria, and the Danubian plain as well as the Istrian mountains where the
Dacians were finally defeated) and it is where some of the herbal refences
seem to be leading..  For folks that like to attack new tidbits, there also
seems to be some relation to the Bon Po  and tibetan calendar from the
proto-Bulgarian one with the snow leopard in place of Leo as a lion and
there is a Tanak Ra calandar influence tied into the hotbed of cultural
mixing in this region as well.  Prior to Roman ascendancy, there is
apparently high culture and a good bit of east/west philosophical mixing in
the region.  A fact, we don't tend to get in recent history, and which is
lost in modern nationalistic disputes in the region.

In any event, the history of Jordanes alone is fascinating reading and gives
a longer more connected history than the disjointed piecemeal geographic one
folks tend to get in school.  I wholeheartedly recommend reading it.  While
there is suggestion of bias in his writings by some as he was of Goth
descent, I think he makes some pointed remarks to his attempts to be
accurate as compared to other historians, and when compared against other
ancient historians' accounts, I would suggest some of the suggestions of
bias were made without our current benefit of the ability to cross fact
check with other contemporaneous works, and documents that have since turned
up.  The Goths of Jordanes is not the glossed over Gothic history one tends
to think of....



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