Re: VMs: RE: to Brian Tawney, re: nature of Goth/Dacian language

[Wayne Durden <wdurden@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

on 7/25/05 12:35 PM, Brian Tawney at btawney@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> Hi Wayne,
> 
> I'm curious about the idea that the Goths and the Dacians are the same
> people....
> 
> I think Jordanes referred to the Gothic country as "the land our ancestors
> called Dacia", but is there other evidence that they are the same people,
> aside from having lived in the same place?  After all, people migrate quite
> a lot.  For example, two thousand years ago Turkey was called Anatolia and
> there were no Turks there, part of Italy was called Etruria and the
> Etruscans lived there, there were Pelasgian cities scattered about the North
> Mediterranean, and Marseille was a Hellenized Phoenician colony.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Brian

Hi Brian:

Thank you for your interest.  I apologize for the delayed response, I have
been hiking and camping Georgia trails for several days including the
challenging Coosa Backcountry Trail (most recommended!)

I, like you, had conceptions regarding the history of the Goths and Dacians
based on what I now believe is erroneous modern reinterpretation and
mislabeling.  One of my undergraduate majors was history, yet I never more
than touched upon summaries of the area, and that glossing over left an
impression far different than the picture I now have by going back to older
or original materials and checking and cross-checking.

It is now apparent to me from my research that the Getae/Goths/Dacians refer
to one people (although there were varied ethnicities including a large
percentage of Celts - and taking into account this grouping existed for a
large time span).  In general the Dacians were known as Getae by the Greeks,
and by Dacorum, Getarum, or Dagae by the Romans in their writings (see, i.e.
the Roman map - Tabula Peutingeriana).  Now in addition, there are multiple
slight spelling differences or variations in translations and
plural/singular forms such as geton and dac/dacus spellings, but the basic
sameness of the peoples is covered by multiple sources over an immense
historical range (Johannes Magnus, Pliny, Ptolomy, Herodotus, Jordanes, Dio
Cassius, etc, etc).  I personally have gone back to translations of many of
the ones listed below in the nice online summary I am going to list for you
at the bottom of this response because of its length.  I suggest that while
this differs from the currently taught "fashion", any person that puts in
the time to check translations of the sources listed would agree that this
interpretation is not "crackpot." Unfortunately, I suffer no illusion that
many will make the effort nor have the time.  I personally put in 25 hours
or so a week tracking down leads of all sorts related to the VMS, and only
have the luxury of doing so at the ripe age of 40 because I had the good
fortune as a litigating attorey to be able to "retire" early to daytrade and
sell software to help other traders do their near impossible taxes.

When Nick mentioned the Phaistos disk, which was one of the posts that
caused me to begin posting again to the main list again rather than to
remain sitting silent on the Dacian hypothesis, Dennis, who has been a kind
reasoned voice of moderation for a long time, later suggested as a question
in his response that Nick was being facetious.  If you actually review the
underlying sources listed at the end of this post, I think you may find, as
I have, that a northern (Scandinavian) link with Etruscan, which would
instantly be scoffed at by most credentialed doctorates in history is not
facetious, but supported by a number of histories, many pre-existing any
potential nationalistic bias issues (again, the sources for this remark are
included in the section I am lifting from the internet at the end which
summarizes and parallels much of the ground I have covered).

Your mention of Etruria is also most coincidental because it touches on the
theory our subgroup is following tracking this as a Dacian/Getic writing
from Italy.  Specifically,  I believe that the VMS may in fact be the same
manuscript kept by Perusians (residents of Perugia) and mentioned as a Getic
writing by Carolus Lundius.  This relates to Etruria, beause, as has been
said of Perugia:

Perugia is one of the very few Etruscan cities that retains anything like
its ancient importance. One of the "heads of Etruria" of old, it is still
among the first cities of Central Italy.
 

Specifically, Carolus Lundius mentions the Getic writing viewed by Johannes
and Olauf Magnus and others, and that this "book" was still in existence in
the 1650's.  (Olauf did a famous map, and Johannes wrote another Goth
history which we are tracking down because it contains commentary on the
Getic alphabet purportedly).  Here is the reference from a translation of
Carolus Lundius that mentions this Gothic/Getic writing:


Start of long quote from Carolus Lundius (Carolo Lundio) - ZAMOLXIS ­ FIRST
LEGISLATOR OF The Getae - pay close attention to reference to the book -
also note that the Dion Chrysostom mentioned is the same as Dio Cassius
whose full history of the Goths is now lost
 >>>>

 The Scythian Johannes, dealing eruditely with just those Gothic laws,
asserted with elegance the oldness and military virtue of the Sueons and the
Goths. And what a unparalleled talent to write by hand that most beautiful
opuscule, this is why in very few copies and by so few it can be ever used:
just for that reason I never doubted a moment it has been transcribed with
greatest care. Which, in a seamless succession of words, shall read: What
more do you expect? Olaus Magnus recounts he would see with his eyes in
Italy, in Peruse (a city in Etruria, located between the lake Trasimene and
the river Tibru - T.¹s N.) a book of Gothic/Getic laws, written in Gothic
characters and, despite the oldness of that literary, legal monument, as of
course many years elapsed from the time when the Goths lived in Italy, was
carefully preserved and kept by the Perusians. That book is a volume
containing the laws of the Goths, gathering an assembly of laws, which the
Suets and the Goths make use of these days, too, so the same laws have been
discovered, which are effective now, too. Such a consistency of the contents
of the laws led us towards a very certain argument, namely the Goths, when
leaving for Italy, took with them the law codices, too. The more ample
authority of that Olaus has been outlined by the illustrious man Joannes
Metellus Sequanus, the most brilliant historian of the Roman Emperor, Rudolf
II, who both me, and the most noble man Johannes Rosenhan of the Torp
settlement, made public in the dwelling of the Ruler of Neuland, Carolus
Uthenhov, and always asserted to have browsed through that book, even before
the 50s, together with brothers Joannes and Olaus Magnus. Why? For that most
brilliant Prince, Master Fridericus, Duke of Braunschweig and Luneburg, has
shown that most brilliant and powerful Prince, Master Carolus and designated
as a King of Sweden and my most merciful Master, with a noble attendance of
the most noble people, not how he has shown before, but the same book, with
who he had been in Rome in Peruse and who he has seen with a special
admiration. As far there was III. Scythian. But several monuments have been
seen ­ signs of an ancient virtue of our ancestors, the Goths, over Italy
and many other kingdoms on the occasion of their wanderings, with great
significance and in good order drawn up in their travel diaries, as it is
the case too of that brought to light by chance, by the noble young man
Johannes Gabriel Sparvenfelt: it is happily and with cleverness annotated;
thus, thanks to the destiny governing everything, they could finally be
recovered. V. The ancient paternal Laws of all the Goths and, partially,
regarding the West-Gothic expeditions, both that military, in Greece, and in
other places, in a word, there are clearly mentioned the migration regions.
VI. The customs, letters, language, sacred things and other concerning any
relations with the exterior. All these have been clearly stated at their
places. Sure thing, Grotius (Proleg. Hist. Goth. Melancht. in the Busbeq
Chronicle. Ep. IV. Scal. lib. III) stresses the idea that by the Sea of
Azov, even in our days, there are alive the customs, the language and names
of the Goths (i.e. the Getae¹s, T.¹s N.) He adds several names in the
Persian language five of Scythian places, places over which Persia had ruled
for a long time (so, because they were inhabited/reigned by the Persians,
they got Persian names, as the case with us with the translation into
Slavonic of many toponyms purely Geto-Dacian, at the time of Slavic peoples
invasions, leading to wrong solutions on part of those linguists not knowing
the history of the country, or, pure and simple, even if they do know it,
they mystify it, T.¹s N.), only now, for the first time transmitted. Then,
about the current use of some Gothic words in Chersonesus Taurica (our days
Crimea) and in Tartaria Praecopensis, most illustrious men, like Melancht.,
Busbeq., Scal., Vulcan., Boxhorn., Rachel. Even our Verelius (Chron., p.m.
338, Vulcan in ad. dit. Not. in Jordanes, Boxhorn. Hist. Univ. ad. Rachel De
jure Publ. Imp. Germ. CXIII), has shown on the text margin and in the notes
to the additions operated by Vulcanius, that more than a few of those words
are absolutely Getic. For the same reason, the other can also be referred to
the same origin, seen on the same writings. Right this is a reason for being
worried, as expressed in the recently appeared book by the illustrious man
Wolff and already gone Verelius, which we leave to be brought to a good end.
VII. The natural migration of the peoples towards south are the words
belonging to Cromerus (I, I, CXV, by R. Pollon). ³It is much more common²,
he says, ³that the north peoples would migrate towards south. It is the case
of the Cimbres, Goths, Vandals and Langobards.² As I said above, what did
separated the Goths from the other peoples, it was the health and body
robustness; the respectable writers assert the same thing: since they have
white skin, fair locks of hair and are one head taller than others. By such
qualities blonde Ceres would give birth to a grand offspring, like Lucan
sang (Lib. IV, De bello Civili, p. 104); beside others, that one was
Procopius (Lib. I, Hist. Vandal.), who added: ³The Gothic nations have been
manifolds once, but also today. The noblest of all are the Goths/Getae,
Vandals, Visigoths and Gepidae who have also been called ancient
Sauromatians and Melanchleens. There are some who called those ones Getae.²
(It is very clear that, right as everywhere in his book, as he did in fact
stated it, the Goths is the same as the Getae, T.¹s N.) But those, i.e. the
Getae, do not differ at all from the Goths, but by their names (see also
Maria Crisan, Ubicuitatea Geto-Dacilor ­ annexed to Arta poetica? la G.
Cos¸buc and Limba stra?mos¸ilor nos¸tri s¸i primul poet Romano-geto-dac,
Publius Ovid Naso in which the author speaks about the vowel alternation
e/o; so the Goths are nothing else than tribes of warlike Getae, as they
were inclusively at the mouth of the river Dnieper­Borysthene, as Dion
Chrysostom attests it in Getica, Getae not yet settled, T.¹s N.): all having
white skin, reddish fair locks of hair, very tall and with handsome faces.
They have common laws and neither the cult of gods tells them apart. This is
what Coelius says through the mouth of Horace (chap.II, chap.XXI, in Horat.
Epod. XVI).

end of quote <<<<<<<

Again, I suspect the Getic book described as having been viewd by the
Magnuses and others around 1650 could actually be the VMS.

Members of the subgroup are currently searching for images or facsimiles of
Johannes Magnus history.  An original first edition woodcut version is for
sale for $5000 here:

http://www.krownspellman.com/cgi-bin/spellman/18434.html

and there is at least one other version which may have better information
related to the Getic alphabet.  We have requested images from the seller...

Once again, this post is growing huge so I will halt with the exception of a
summary that covers part of why I am convinced the Dacs and Goths and Getae
were the same.  This is from

 http://www.originofnations.org/books,%20papers/Scandinavia.htm

and summarizes pretty much what I arrived at from disparate sources:

Start quoted section>>>>>

Great Scythia was the area around the Black and Caspian Seas. When the Svear
arrived in Scandinavia, they found the country already inhabited by ³the
Goths, who had emigrated thither at a remote period, veiled from the eyes of
history,² says Henry Wheaton in his book History of the Northmen.
 
Scandinavian Goths
 
Paul Siding begins his history of Scandinavia by saying, ³The present
inhabitants of Denmark, as well as of Norway and Sweden, are successors of
the enormous Gothic tribe formerly dwelling round about the Black Sea² (page
19, Scandinavian Races).
Notice that both the Svear and the Goths came from the area of the Black
Sea. At the mouth of the Danube on the western shore is the area of Getae
and Dacia in Roman times. According to Procopius, who wrote his history in
the fifth century, Romans ³say that the Goths are of the Getic race² (Book
V. xxiv, 30).
The Getae are mentioned in the history of Herodotus (fifth century B.C.). In
the translation by George Rawlinson, his brother Sir Henry gives this
footnote: ³The identity of the Getae with the Goths of later times is more
than a plausible conjecture. It may be regarded as historically certain²
(Vol. III, page 84, 1862 edition).
Jordanes, the best known Gothic historian, always speaks of the Getae and
Goths as one people. He also calls them ³Scythae.²
We find more evidence in other historical accounts. For example, ³The
Pictish Chronicle declares that the Scythians and Goths had a common origin²
(page 216, The Races of Ireland and Scotland by W. C. Mackenzie).
The evidence also indicates that the Getae were the same kind of people as
the Dacians. They both spoke the same language according to Strabo (7.3.13).
Pliny says that the Getae were called Dacians by the Romans (Book IV, xxi,
80).
Duchesne, who collected the Norman chronicles in the seventeenth century,
has no doubt whatever that the Normans were Dacians and consistently calls
them by that name in his preface.
Dudo, who wrote the earliest history of the Normans in the tenth century,
also had no doubt that they came from Scythia beyond the Danube. Healso said
they were Dacians.
 
The Cimbri in Denmark
 
The Svear and Goths were not the only founders of the great Scandinavian
race. We also need to consider the Danes, Jutes and Cimbri. The Cimbri gave
their name to the Jutland and Holstein area of Denmark. It was formerly
called the Cimbrica Chersonesus or Cimbric Peninsula.
Where did the Cimbri come from? When Henry Long wrote about the early
geography of Europe, he had no doubts when he said: ³Strabo (vii, 2,2)
informs us that the Cimbri were the same people called by the Greeks
Cimmerii. Under this name, we find them in two widely different positions at
the north-western and north-eastern extremities of the then known world ? in
the peninsula of Jutland upon the German Ocean (Baltic) and in that of
Tauris in the Black Sea² (pages 70-71), Early Geography of Western Europe,
1859).
Here again is another root leading us back to the Black Sea. There is also a
connection with the Dacians and Getae. Notice what Anderson¹s Royal
Genealogies has to say about it:
The Cimbri were in time expelled by the Scythlans, and wandering westward
into Europe, after long travels arrived at this Chersonesus, called from
them Cimbrica; and the Danes, called by Ptolemy Dauciones and Gutae, soon
invaded that part of this peninsula, called from them Jutland to this day,
and mixing with the Cimbri became one nation, called by the ancients All
Cimbri in general² (page 415).
The term ³Scythians² is sometimes applied by historians to a particular
people and sometimes to all the nomad tribes in the vast territory north of
the Black and Caspian Seas. It is this area where we must find the roots of
the Scandinavian peoples.
 
The Gimirrai
 
The Cimmerians were the oldest inhabitants of Scythia. Their history can be
traced back to near the close of the eighth century B.C. in Assyrian
records.
A collection of letters preserved in Ashurbanipal¹s library inform us of
events in the Urartu area of Armenia during the years 707-706 B.C. Included
in this collection were reports from Assyrian frontier posts. One said the
king of Urartu came into ³the land of Gamir² and had to be forced back.
For many years E. D. Phillips studied the history of the nomads in Scythia. 
He says the Cimmerians ³appear late in the eighth century on the northern
border of the Kingdom of Urartu as the Gimirrai or Gamir of Assyrian
records² (page 52, The Royal Hordes, Nomad Peoples of the Steppes). Other
historians agree that the Gimirrai were the ³Kimmerioi² Cimmerians of the
Greeks.

end quoted section<<<<<

If you actually read the older histories and suspend judgment until you can
corroborate, weight and consolidate the various opinions, your perception of
the modern teaching of history may be changed.  Unfortunately, most just
will not have the time to check outside the mainstream or to go back to
original sources.  Others will accord a mere summary statement that there is
no evidence the Dacian peoples had writing which statement is contained
without reference in a 1989 research paper written for a nationalistic
purpose the same weight because it is "in print" on the internet and will
never be moved to go back and see what multiple historians much closer in
time have said...

If hard science needs a generation to die off before major theories can be
jettisoned or adjusted, imagine the recalcitrance in something like ancient
history!  Where do you imagine the consensus opinion about the VMS lies
between that spectrum?


Cheers to your personal journey with the VMS!

Wayne




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